Uncle Harry

[ole Bill]

e

Hello,

This is my first attempt at creating a topic so please forgive me if I havn't don it right.

I’m yet another amateur genealogist researching his family history, in this case my adoptive family, and I really need help from people more conversant than I am with British military uniforms and insignia. Having read through a number of posts in this forum I’m hoping that this is where I may get some answers.

The images attached are crops from a scan of an original sepia toned print which was printed in a postcard format typical of the World War I period. I’ve run it through Photoshop to increase the contrast and render it as true monochrome but have refrained from attempting to enhance it further.

The original photo was taken in a studio in east London, on a date unknown. Detailed examination of the original image, which is in rather poor condition, shows no more detail than can be gleaned from the scan images attached.

The man’s identity is unknown to me being only shown as ‘Uncle Harry’ in an inscription on the rear of the photograph.  From what I know of my family history, the little girl (my Aunt) visible in the image was born in the third quarter (July to September) 1913. From this I feel that the photograph was taken about mid-1916. Family aural history relates that my grandmother was in a relationship with a man during World War I, who was never named to me, that she gave birth to a son in March 1917, and that the father ‘died during the war’. Whether or not that is Uncle Harry in the photograph remains a mystery to me.

Searches in birth, marriage and death register indexes are difficult with no family name for Uncle Harry, so my only real chance to identify him is via military records or Commonwealth War Graves Commission information. Hence, as a start I need to identify his regiment if possible, through interpretation of his uniform badges. My observations on the image are:

1. I believe his rank is Company Sergeant Major or Company Quartermaster Sergeant.

2. He carries a ‘swagger stick(?)’ which I believe would be part of his ‘walking out’ dress. This may have some sort of design embossed on the metal ferrule, but the image definition is so poor as to make it unresolvable.

3. His cap badge appears to feature a laurel leaf (or similar) surround with a crown above. To me there appears to be an incised design within the leaves surround.

4. His tunic bears what appears to be a five-pointed star design collar badge on the left collar. The right collar also has a badge, but it is not resolved well enough to see if this is the same as that on the left.

5. There is some sort of embroidered badge at the top of the tunic left arm.

6. There may be a metal badge/bar on the outer most part of the tunic’s left epaulette (although this may just be a photographic artifact).

7. He wears no campaign ribbons.

8. I bet there are a load of other clues I’ve missed!

I managed to get hold of ’British Army Cap Badges of the First World War’ by Doyle and Foster but have been unable to find a badge illustrated that fully convinces me it is the same as that which is shown in the photograph. I have not yet managed to identify any references on the collar badges.

Given that he has obviously achieved a substantial NCO rank I wonder how long it would have taken to rise to that rank. The absence of any campaign medals makes me feel that he saw no, or very limited, service prior to World War I.

It’s a big ask of the forum membership, but I bet there’s someone out there who will take one look and say, “It’s obvious to anyone that he was a member of ………………”.

Thanks for reading this far, any suggestions or information that you could give would help my search no end, so thanks in advance.

 

 

[RussT]

Welcome to the Forum

An educated guess - Royal Engineers.

But I'm even less knowledgeable with collar badges.

Hopefully others e.g. @FROGSMILE might be able to help !

Regards

Russ

 

[FROGSMILE]

It’s a very poor photo unfortunately so there’s little definition to form a clear identity.  It does appear a wartime photo though and collar badges were not officially authorised for British Army units, although a few war raised battalions did so as an idiosyncrasy despite breaking regulations.

However, overseas forces from the old Commonwealth countries did commonly wear collar badges.  As an example the Canadian units in the vast majority of cases wore a collar badge based on a Maple leaf and I think that’s what we might be seeing here.

It could perhaps be Canadian Engineers, but impossible to be 100% certain.  The uniform is British Service Dress and this was adopted by Canadian units once they were deploying to France, as they needed to rely on the British supply chain.

At the top of his left upper arm is a cloth title that I think might read ‘CANADA’ going by the first two letters.  On his shoulder strap is an additional title in brass, which appears to be straight and is also either, Canada, or CE for Canadian Engineers.

The grenade arm badge above sergeant’s stripes was the SNCO arm badge worn on both arms by engineers, but the British army’s Royal Engineers are ruled out by the collar badges, which if worn would also be grenades but in metal**.  Grenade arm badges for bombers and trench mortars were usually worn on just the right arm if an NCO instructor.  

His rank is sergeant of engineers.  Don’t be put off by the Canadian connection.  During WW1 significant numbers of British emigrants returned to Britain having enlisted in the Canadian Expeditionary Force, or after independent passage, joined them in Britain.

**interestingly there are photos of Canadian Engineers at there depot in Canada who are wearing grenade collar badges so the alternative regimental pattern, or general service Maple leaf types, seem to have been adopted by the CEF overseas.

 

 

Edited 26 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

22 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s a very poor photo unfortunately so there’s little definition to form a clear identity.  It does appear a wartime photo though and collar badges were not officially authorised for British Army units, although a few war raised battalions did so as an idiosyncrasy despite breaking regulations.

However, overseas forces from the old Commonwealth countries did commonly wear collar badges.  As an example the Canadian units in the vast majority of cases wore a collar badge based on a Maple leaf and I think that’s what we might be seeing here.

It could perhaps be Canadian Engineers, but impossible to be 100% certain.  The uniform is British Service Dress and this was adopted by Canadian units once they were deploying to France, as they needed to rely on the British supply chain.

At the top of his left upper arm is a cloth title that I think might read ‘CANADA’ going by the first two letters.  On his shoulder strap is an additional title in brass, which appears to be straight and is also either, Canada, or CE for Canadian Engineers.

The grenade arm badge above SNCO stripes was the arm badge for engineers, but British Royal Engineers are ruled out by the collar badges, which if worn would also be grenades.  His rank is sergeant of engineers.

I agree, Canadian Engineers. He is, to my eyes, wearing the solid, downward curving CANADA metal shoulder titles on his epaulettes and the maple leaf collar badges.     Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I agree, Canadian Engineers. He is, to my eyes, wearing the solid, downward curving CANADA metal shoulder titles on his epaulettes and the maple leaf collar badges.     Pete.

Thank you Pete, it’s good to have your eyes cast over it for a second, or third opinion, counting Russ.

Edited 22 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[ole Bill]

You guys don't hang about do you?

Thanks for the welcome and 'educated guess' RussT, and thanks for your feedback FROGSMILE.

As I know so little about Uncle Harry I try not to create a story in my mind about who he was. I've learnt that jumping to conclusions doesn't work where geneaology work is concerned. I know I'll probably never get to the whole truth of the matter.

I've gone back to the original photograph and taken a look at the points you made FROGSMILE, and I'll quite happily concede the maple leaf and grenade (I thought it was a crown). The Canada flash looks pretty reasonable to me as well. The cap badge in the photo looks to me to have a more elongated look compared to the examples you provided, I found this was the case when I was looking at the Doyle and Foster book so it may be an artifact of the printed images or the photo prining. Of course it could be just my imagination!

As the evidence is leading towards a Canadian connection I think that I'll re-visit the Commonwealth War Graves site again and try searching again with this information. Of course the 'family story' I have recounted may simply be to hide the fact that the relationship between my grandmother and this guy was simply a casual one and that instead of 'he died during the war' it may be 'he went home after the war'. But that's making up a story, and that's not what I should be doing.

Thanks again to both of you for yoursuggestions, I appreciate you taking the time to give me a helping hand.

 

[ole Bill]

Hi CorpralPunishment,

Sorry I missed you post, I was one finger jabbing at the keyboard (never a very quick process with me) in reply to RussT and FROGSMILE. If you three guys all concur I'm more than happy to accept you verdicts. I note the comment about the metal epaulette with interest.

Thanks

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, ole Bill said:

You guys don't hang about do you?

Thanks for the welcome and 'educated guess' RussT, and thanks for your feedback FROGSMILE.

As I know so little about Uncle Harry I try not to create a story in my mind about who he was. I've learnt that jumping to conclusions doesn't work where geneaology work is concerned. I know I'll probably never get to the whole truth of the matter.

I've gone back to the original photograph and taken a look at the points you made FROGSMILE, and I'll quite happily concede the maple leaf and grenade (I thought it was a crown). The Canada flash looks pretty reasonable to me as well. The cap badge in the photo looks to me to have a more elongated look compared to the examples you provided, I found this was the case when I was looking at the Doyle and Foster book so it may be an artifact of the printed images or the photo prining. Of course it could be just my imagination!

As the evidence is leading towards a Canadian connection I think that I'll re-visit the Commonwealth War Graves site again and try searching again with this information. Of course the 'family story' I have recounted may simply be to hide the fact that the relationship between my grandmother and this guy was simply a casual one and that instead of 'he died during the war' it may be 'he went home after the war'. But that's making up a story, and that's not what I should be doing.

Thanks again to both of you for yoursuggestions, I appreciate you taking the time to give me a helping hand.

 

On reflection of all the visual evidence in the round I’m confident that his unit is a Canadian one and the cloth arm grenades can only be engineers.  The slight distortion to the cap badge could be caused by him simply moving his head during the lengthy exposure period.

[RobertBr]

The first Canadian and Newfoundland troops sailed for Engalnd in October 1914, landing in Plymouth two weeks later.

They were initially based on Salsibury Plain for training in Trench Warfare.

Canadian records are very good. If you can identify him then he can be researched at   Guide to units of the Canadian Expeditionary Force

Good luck

Bob

[ole Bill]

Hello Bob,

This is my first time on any sort of forum, so I'm busy trying to digest all the information that's comming my way and work out who's saying what to who.

Salisbury Plain is a bit of a trot from where the photograph was taken ( Stratford, London E15) so there is another dimension as to how the two of them got together. I doubt I'll ever get to the bottom of that one.

My original intention was to try searches on regiment/rank/first name on the CWGC site, I'll take a look at the link you sent and see what I can turn up on that.

Thanks.

[FROGSMILE]

There were also several Canadian units in and around the area of Folkestone in Kent, which was a relatively short journey by train to London.  One of these units was the Canadian Command Depot, which like it’s regionally based British counterparts of the same designation, were centres for the gradual physical rehabilitation and hardening of men who had been wounded, but were capable of recovery.  See: https://scholars.wlu.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1761&context=cmh

Edited 22 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Men on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission database who died serving in the Canadian Engineers with a rank of Sergeant or higher and the initial H \ first name beginning with an H in date order. I think most can be eliminated quite quickly - and of course "Uncle Harry" may have lost his stripes prior to dieing.

1. Lieutenant Harry Cavanagh, First Army Troops, aged 30, died 04/09/1916, buried UK. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2905619/harry-cavanagh/

Image sourced  courtesy https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/canadian-virtual-war-memorial/detail/2905619

2: 501281 Sergeant Harry Johnston, 1^st Canadian Tunnelling Company, died 19/10/1916, buried UK. Awarded DCM. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/649241/harry-johnston/

• Canadian service record available here https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=335924

3: 501189 Sergeant Henry Hiscock, aged 43, died 17/02/1918, buried Canada.
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/426397/henry-hiscock/

Died after discharge – image sourced courtesy https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/canadian-virtual-war-memorial/detail/426397

4: 501111 Sergeant H. Millar, 9^th Battalion, died 07/08/1918, buried France. Awarded Military Medal
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/587107/h-millar/

• Canadian service record, (as Hugh Millar), available here https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=187743

Image courtesy https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/canadian-virtual-war-memorial/detail/587107

5: 408386 Sergeant H. Abrams, 6^th Battalion, died 08/08/1918, buried France. Awarded Military Medal. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/70901/h-abrams/

• Canadian service record, (as Herbert Abrams), available here https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=590

 

Image courtesy https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/canadian-virtual-war-memorial/detail/70901

6: 3034825 Sergeant Henry Pearson, aged 24, died 12/10/1918, buried Canada. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2756875/henry-pearson/

• Canadian service record, as Harry Brown Pearson,  available here https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=567842

7: Lieutenant Harold Schaffer, 7^th Battalion, died 30/10/1918, buried France. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/578167/harold-schaffer/

• Canadian service record available here https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=216213

8: 2010098 Sergeant Henry (Hans) Eyller, aged 30, died 26/08/1919, buried USA. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/4010378/henry-hans-eyller/

• Canadian service record, (as Hans Eyller), available here https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=380934

Hope that helps,
Peter

Edited 22 September , 2023 by PRC
Typos and formatting

[ole Bill]

Hello PRC

Sorry I'm a bit slow in saying Thanks for all the info you sent. At first glane there's a couple of possibles in the list. I'll follow them up and see if I can get to an image of the person. That's about the only way I would be able to be sure that I'm looking at the right person.

All,

Thanks for your help, the response is impressive.

Whoever Uncle Harry was I think that it's possible that he was the father of the son born in March 1917. That child took the family name of my grandmothers first husband, who died in 1913, so it's fairly certain that any relationship she was in was not formalised. The son would go on to join the army at the start of World War II, was sent to Singapore and taken prisoner when the city fell. He subsequently died in a prison camp in Burma.

I'll update this topic as and when (if) I get any more information.

Thanks, All.

Phil