Is this a 21cm German howitzer shell case?

[arantxa]

[MikB]

I might stand corrected, but it's short, German, and of the right diameter - can't see there's anything else for it to be... 

[arantxa]

Thanks 

[Chasemuseum]

👍

[Holger Kotthaus]

Also during the WW I there were different types of German 21 cm mortars in usage.
That means also different types of ammunition, also for one type (HE & AP for concrete)

21 cm Krupp Mörser M.1899
21 cm Krupp Mörser M.1910
21 cm Krupp Mörser M.1916 (Lang)

Photo of 21 cm Mörser Cartridge M.1910 and 1916
https://www.kaisersbunker.com/cc/cc10.htm

Waffen Arsenal - Deutscher 21-cm Mörser 1911-1945
http://amicale.3emedragons.free.fr/Docs materiels WW2/Waffen Arsenal 162 - Deutsche 21 cm Moerser 1911-1945+.pdf

Cheers Holger

 

[Chasemuseum]

There are not a lot of the m1899 Mörser surviving. There is one at Red Cliffs in Victoria, Australia. I have a lot of photos of it but cannot locate them. The photos below are from the internet

Cheers

 

 

 

[arantxa]

Thank you fir  the pictures and links ever so interesting I always print off the info and put it with the item and then it makes it much more interesting 

thanks again everyone 

[Holger Kotthaus]

12 hours ago, Chasemuseum said:

There are not a lot of the m1899 Mörser surviving. There is one at Red Cliffs in Victoria, Australia. I have a lot of photos of it but cannot locate them. The photos below are from the internet

Cheers

 

 

Chasemuseum,

Many thanks for posting these interesting photos.

Various online sources, listed below, explain that this gun would be quasi
the `missing link´ between the German 21 cm mortars M.1899 and M.1910.

Furthermore:
"Krupp 21cm Versuchs Mörser Nr 3M1907 gun, which is reputedly one of only
eight that were built."

"Barclay Square, Red Cliffs 3496 VIC, Victoria, Australia, 29 december 2011:
a German 8.2 Howitzer given by the National War Museum and unveiled on
Anzac Day 1928"

21cm Versuch Mörser L/10
http://www.passioncompassion1418.com/Canons/Eng_AfficheCanonGET.php?IdCanonAffiche=98

21 cm Versuchmörser 06
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_cm_Versuchmörser_06

§§- 21cm VersuchsMorser nr3 1906 en Australie
http://canonspgmww1guns.canalblog.com/archives/2011/01/13/20119317.html

All sources have (‘Copy & Past’) completely identical content. Although the
background of the test specimens is explained explicitly, it is more than unusual
that Krupp used a `rotating screw-closure´ instead of its tried and tested
`slider-crank-closure´ (both on the M.99 & M.10) on an experimental basis should.

The same applies to the retrieval brake and the raw retractor. Apart from the wooden
spoke wheels, no any typical Krupp details or features can be identified.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I would like to express 'legitimate doubt' that it is a German
construction. But I’m happy to be convinced.

In addition to the arguments mentioned above, this is supported by the fact that
none of the primary sources listed point to this type of experimental mortar.
Some of the sources say even the opposite, so I would like to know where the author
of these lines got the information from?

The argument against this, is the alleged Prussian `coat of arms´ on the gun barrel
(unfortunately not easy to see)

Holger

 

[MikB]

This website:

https://ator1149.home.xs4all.nl/wfm/ww1/ammunition2.html

...has case length as 231mm for 21cm. Mörser. Tricky to scale from photos, but yours could be somewhere around that.

There seems to be little information about as to whether the case varied between models, or one size fit all. Nominal muzzle velocities seem similar enough to be down to barrel length and/or small charge variations in the same case.

I share Holger's doubts that German artillery makers would've chosen to use a screw-breech at such a time. They can be lighter than sliding wedges and the ammunition cheaper, but they're a lot harder to make and in many ways not as good.

[Chasemuseum]

Hi Holger,

I did have a detailed selection of photos of the gun from when I visited it, unfortunately I cannot locate the files. As it is over 1,000km from where I live it's not that easy to get back there.

 

The piece is on the Australian War Memorial capture trophy cards as; a 210mm German howitzer, serial #6, surrendered to France after the armistice.

This means it was supplied to the Australian Government when the request was made for additional trophy guns. Many of the 210mm howitzers in Australia were supplied in this way   

       Hobart Tasmania, #1001, now outside the Anglesea Army Barracks in Hobart,

       Hindmarsh South Australia #853, now in a private collection in New Zealand, 

        Childers Qld #406

         Footscray Vic #404 - scrapped.

 

The others were

      Waverley (Sydney NSW) #785 captured 8 August 1918 by 45Bn AIF, now in a private museum in Cairns Queensland, 

      Sydney City NSW, #1256 captured 8 August 1918 by 45Bn AIF, scrapped.

     Randwick (Sydney NSW) #362 captured 8 August 1918 by 45Bn AIF, scrapped.

     Australian War Memorial, Canberra ACT #1257 captured 8 August 1918 by 45Bn AIF

     Australian War Memorial, Canberra ACT #2713, no record of how obtained probably from French Government

     Australian War Memorial, Canberra ACT #707, no record of how obtained probably from French Government

     Leeton Qld, #386, captured 18 September 1918 by 1 Bn AIF (do not think that this still exists, thee is no longer a town of Leeton in Queensland)

    Mooney Ponds Vic #436, captured 8 August 1918 by 58 Bn AIF (do not think that this still exists)

     

[CharlieLII]

Wokepedia copied the entry from Landships II (landships.info). I was very careful with this one because it is such an unusual gun. The trophy gun allocation data said it came from the surrendered guns at the end of WW1 - it was 210mm sFH with serial #5. In the Landships II article is a list of sources. If memory serves Arie Dijkhuis supplied the information from Schirmer's book - as far as I'm aware there isn't a copy of this work in Australia. The incised crest on the barrel really is the Prussian cipher - someone did a rubbing of the cipher and matched it to identified ciphers. That's all I can pull out of my memory without doing a major search on a couple of forums to find the original posts (if they still exist).

I found an image of this type of Morser with what I think were Landswehr troops - I will try to dig it out. 

34 minutes ago, MikB said:

This website:

https://ator1149.home.xs4all.nl/wfm/ww1/ammunition2.html

...has case length as 231mm for 21cm. Mörser. Tricky to scale from photos, but yours could be somewhere around that.

There seems to be little information about as to whether the case varied between models, or one size fit all. Nominal muzzle velocities seem similar enough to be down to barrel length and/or small charge variations in the same case.

I share Holger's doubts that German artillery makers would've chosen to use a screw-breech at such a time. They can be lighter than sliding wedges and the ammunition cheaper, but they're a lot harder to make and in many ways not as good.

The Morser isn't in an easily accessible location - go to Melbourne then drive Northwest for about 4 hours to the Murray River. 

The Morser at Redcliffs definitely isn't a M1899 - there are two survivors of that Morser still in existence - at the Military Museum in Brussels and at Veyne-Monton in France. 

Charlie

Krupp did make interrupted screw breeches - the 75mm export guns they made for Argentina have an interrupted screw breech. Similarly the 10cm guns and 15cm howitzers they made for Japan had interrupted screw breeches. I have a recollection the 15cm sFH 93s they made for Japan had interrupted screw breeches as well (not certain - got a drawing somewhere).

Found the thread where the Redcliffs Morser was identified - https://landships.activeboard.com/t40103573/i-need-help-for-id-gun-part-3/ (scroll down a bit).

Found the period image of the prototype Morser (attached)

 

[Holger Kotthaus]

Dear All,
many thanks for your replies.

I know that Krupp and Rheinmetall sold their original guns with a slide-crank-
or wedge-block-breech, also with a rotating screw breech; - for whatever reason?

 

Here just as an example, a 10.5 cm QF Krupp L/35 on Navy Mount C/86 with an slide-crank-breech block (no wedge-block-breech)

Original Source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:10.5_cm_SK_L35-1.jpg

Here is the completely identical 10.5 cm gun as a Portuguese export version with a rotating-screw-breech (system 'De Bange'), only 8 pieces produced.

Original Source: https://interfest.de/images/am_wall/am_wall_88/image067.jpgOriginal

 

Coming to the point, the last picture from CharlieLII convinced me, even if it looks like a wedge-block-breech,

and not the rotating-screw-breech which was shown on the other photos?!

Edited 22 September , 2023 by Holger Kotthaus

[Holger Kotthaus]

The final check and thus the final proof for a Krupp 21 cm mortar
comes from the responsible and competent colleagues at the GWF
that the gun barrel symbol must be a German crown and an eagle.

Which coat of Arms on gun barrel?
https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/306690-which-coat-of-arms-on-gun-barrel/

Regards Holger

 

[MikB]

Coat of arms looks like W II R - presumably Kaiser Bill ? - with ' Ultima Ratio Regis'  (or Regum), for 'Final Argument of King' (or Kings).

 

[CharlieLII]

The rearmost cipher definitely is the Kaiser's cipher and motto. There's another one further forward on the barrel - that one, I think,  is the Prussian state cipher.

Pre-WW1 artillery barrels often had the Kaiser's cipher and a state cipher on the barrel. During WW1 so many of the guns were reworked by putting in new sleeves and

machining the outside of the barrel to correct dimensions that most of the ciphers disappeared.  All of the wartime production guns didn't have ciphers or rather I've never seen one. Attached is a Kaiser Wilhelm cipher on an FK 96 n.A (reworked form an a.A in 1907 - it's not as fancy as the one on the Redcliffs Morser. What usually happened to the ciphers is the second image - the centre part of the cipher has been machined away when the FK 96 n.A was reworked in 1915.

Charlie

 

[Holger Kotthaus]

4 hours ago, CharlieLII said:

The rearmost cipher definitely is the Kaiser's cipher and motto. There's another one further forward on the barrel - that one, I think,  is the Prussian state cipher.

Pre-WW1 artillery barrels often had the Kaiser's cipher and a state cipher on the barrel. During WW1 so many of the guns were reworked by putting in new sleeves and

machining the outside of the barrel to correct dimensions that most of the ciphers disappeared.  All of the wartime production guns didn't have ciphers or rather I've never seen one. Attached is a Kaiser Wilhelm cipher on an FK 96 n.A (reworked form an a.A in 1907 - it's not as fancy as the one on the Redcliffs Morser. What usually happened to the ciphers is the second image - the centre part of the cipher has been machined away when the FK 96 n.A was reworked in 1915.

Charlie

 

Dear CharlieLII,

Thank you for your competent and final confirmation. I'm always happy to learn more.

 

Regards Holger