MK1 * Helmets

[Foggster]

I have a helmet which at first glance seems to be a bog standard MKII helmet . All the dates match ( liner & shell ) , the only thing is , the bale rivets are split , not a stud shape . Could this be a MKI * that has had the shell stamped 1939 ?

[peregrinvs]

No, it’s a MkII helmet made by Rubery Owen & Co in 1939. MkI* helmets weren’t re-stamped. If you scroll down in this old thread, you can see my MkI* helmet that was repurposed as a civil defence helmet in WWII. The WWI shell stampings weren’t altered.

 

[Foggster]

If that's right , not doughting you by the way , why would it have split rivets ?

[peregrinvs]

Some form of later modification, but why I couldn’t tell you. If you Google for pictures of ROCO 1939 marked helmets, the chinstrap attachments are riveted on.

[4thGordons]

Can I piggy back here to ask for opinions.

I am completing a WWII RAF display and have been on the look out for an RAF painted helmet for a while - just got this one.

Looking at it - it appears to me to perhaps be a relined/reused earlier helmet (MkI*?).  I can find no sign of markings on it at all anywhere.

Thoughts please? (apologies for the pictures I'll try and retake some)

Chris

 

Edited 16 September , 2023 by 4thGordons

[peregrinvs]

That’s a post-WWII Belgian copy of a MkII helmet. The blue colour is probably for their airforce.

This article might be of interest if you wanted to make something for display purposes.

http://www.wadhamsfamilyhistory.co.uk/RAFsteelhelmetrestoration.pdf

Edited 16 September , 2023 by peregrinvs

[4thGordons]

 

15 minutes ago, peregrinvs said:

That’s a post-WWII Belgian copy of a MkII helmet. The blue colour is probably for their airforce.

This article might be of interest if you wanted to make something for display purposes.

http://www.wadhamsfamilyhistory.co.uk/RAFsteelhelmetrestoration.pdf

Thanks!

[Foggster]

You could always source an original chinstrap and matching dated liner ! I have done that myself for a present for my son in law who was in the R.N.

Edited 16 September , 2023 by Foggster

[4thGordons]

Thanks -- I have a number of fully original MkII helmets so I am not too concerned about this one. I intend to display it with a set of 1925 Pattern webbing mounted under auxiliary straps for carrying so it will probably do as is for a placeholder.

CHris

[peregrinvs]

For future reference, there’s no great mystery to spotting a MkI* helmet. It is simply a WWI helmet - with the slightly different shell shape and WWI type markings - refitted with the WWII type liner, chinstrap and chinstrap attachments. The liner and chinstrap attachments can have late 1930’s dates, but the shell was otherwise left unaltered.

Unfortunately a lot of MkII helmets get misdescribed as being a MkI* helmet on eBay - either out of ignorance or in an attempt to increase the value of a MkII helmet. The excuse for this is often the presence of a pre/early WWII MkI liner*.

The MKI* seems to be a fairly scarce beast. I think I’ve seen significantly more unaltered WWI MkI helmets for sale.

 

*The late 1930’s MkI liner fitted to the MkI* and early MkII helmets, not the liner fitted to the WWI MkI helmet.

[4thGordons]

Just a bit of an update and perhaps to catch the attention of the experts.... (The first part of this is off topic WWII related BUT I think might be allowed as it is instructive to distinguish WWI from WWII versions of the helmet and is relevant to the reuse of WWI shells in the later conflict)

I recently found another example of a blue/grey helmet for my RAF display - probably more appropriate than the one above (although I may still use that strapped to a gasmask case for display purposes)

I understand the three holes drilled in the rim indicate lower quality steel (?) ie not for front-line use? 

At the same time I picked up several semi-relic shells for next to nothing and I believe them to be Great War vintage.  Obviously they have been painted odd colours at some point and are quite corroded but might perhaps be "restorable" at least for display purposes or for passing on to reenactors who might want a genuine shell with a wearable reproduction liner.  I suppose if I fitted a WWII liner I would have a MkI* 

The only one with any markings I can find is the silver painted one (shown first here) which also seems to have had a comb fitted at some point - perhaps for theatrical purposes. I believe this is a WWI produced US helmet. If I filled the holes, and fitted a repro liner (which seem readily available but would cost more than all three of these helmets combined!) then it might make a decent display/reenactor helmet.

The others are, as far as I can discern at the moment - unmarked, and may be later production "kelly" helmets, they have rivetted as opposed to split pin attached bales

 

Suggestions/observations appreciated. I have looked over a couple of threads on refinishing helmets for pointers.

Chris

 

 

[peregrinvs]

Going by the chinstrap attachments and shell shapes, I’d say the silver one is a WWI British MkI, the one with the black interior is a WWII British MkII and the white all over one is a US M1917.

[4thGordons]

36 minutes ago, peregrinvs said:

Going by the chinstrap attachments and shell shapes, I’d say the silver one is a WWI British MkI, the one with the black interior is a WWII British MkII and the white all over one is a US M1917.

Thank you -

I think the central liner mounting hole on the one with the black interior is probably too small for the British screw/nut style fitting for the WWII liner - looks more like a rivet was used? so perhaps it is a US M1917 or M1917A1 (post war aka "Kelly" helmet)

Thanks Again

Chris