Location please

[stripeyman]

It is February 1995 and we are lurking about 'somewhere in France' The photos were taken of these impressive artillery emplacements so it is likely the Hindenburg Line.  The third pic shows a bit of the obscured church in front of the emplacements, which may give a clue. I am annotating all my photos and have nothing on these, total forgot, must be old age which I refuse to acknowledge

[Gunner 87]

7 hours ago, stripeyman said:

It is February 1995 and we are lurking about 'somewhere in France' The photos were taken of these impressive artillery emplacements so it is likely the Hindenburg Line.  The third pic shows a bit of the obscured church in front of the emplacements, which may give a clue. I am annotating all my photos and have nothing on these, total forgot, must be old age which I refuse to acknowledge

Hello stripeyman.

I think your church could be L'église Saint-Maurice.at Fontaine-lès-Croisilles. 

Edited 15 September , 2023 by Gunner 87

[Gunner 87]

The map below has a red arrow which I believe gives an indication of the view from the fortifications to the church in the last photograph. A number of new houses now sit where there is open ground in the picture. 

wiki states about the village

'After the Battle of the Borders from August 7 to 24, 1914, faced with the losses suffered, the French General Staff decided to retreat from Belgium. On August 28, the Germans captured the village of Bullecourt and continued their route west. From then on began the German occupation which lasted until September 1918. Orders from the kommandantur obliged, on a fixed date, under the responsibility of the mayor and the municipal council, under penalty of sanctions, the population to provide: wheat, eggs, milk, meat, vegetables, intended to feed the soldiers at the front. All able-bodied people had to carry out agricultural or maintenance work. In March 1917, the Germans decided to withdraw to the Hindenburg line, a fortified line located on the edge of Fontaine-lès-Croisilles.

The Hindenburg line, which includes a large network of barbed wire, bunkers, machine gun posts and which relies on the undestroyed constructions of the villages to the rear, will resist the incessant assaults of the allies until August 27, 1918, the date of breakthrough of the Hindenburg line between Drocourt and Quéant by the first Canadian division.
Evacuated of its inhabitants in 1917, the village was completely destroyed.

Given the suffering endured by the population during the four years of occupation and the damage to buildings, the commune was awarded the 1914-1918 War Cross on September 23, 1920. Then began a long period of reconstruction of the church , the town hall, roads and homes thanks to war damage.'

Considering the above I believe the fortifications in the first and second images to be part of the Hindenburg Line which is situated in the woods North of the village. 

I hope that is of some use and I am correct in my calculations  

Gunner 87

[WhiteStarLine]

1 hour ago, Gunner 87 said:

I am correct in my calculations

I have no idea where in the world this might be but if we look at @Gunner 87's calculations and the OP's picture, then the view to the church shows that the ground slopes down gently and rises up, so that the photographer is roughly eye-level with the ridge of the church roof.  Therefore the profile below shows that a person in Fontaine Wood (green area) would be overlooking the town and some 10 metres above the church foundation.  Add a church and a ridge cap on the roof and you would be roughly eye-level, looking upwards to the steeple.

This doesn't prove anything but it confirms the ground in this town matches the hypothesis.  Cracking photos @stripeyman and I assume from StreetView the structures are all lost now.

[Michelle Young]

Fontaine is more or less surrounded by éoliennes now. I stayed in the village in 2016 and don’t recall seeing any of those structures.

[Gunner 87]

@stripeyman @WhiteStarLine @Michelle Young

Apparently the block houses in the woods were called 'Mebus Argus ,Neptune and Uranus. This image is Fontaine Woods looking North.  

There is a detailed thread on this from 2017 at 

Edited 15 September , 2023 by Gunner 87

[WhiteStarLine]

58 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

Apparently the block houses in the woods were called 'Mebus Argus ,Neptune and Uranus.

Not quite.  Argus, Neptune and Uranus were astride the road towards Bullecourt, each about 500 metres apart and well SE of Croisilles.  Argus & Neptune were marked as destroyed on a March 1918 map.  Neptune was 750 metres from Bullecourt, so very close to that town.  The closest was Uranus and it was 1,450 yards south of the church.

However, there were plenty of concrete structures as candidates for your original position.  Check the 3 on the northern side of Sensee Trench just over the river.  Or if we rotate your diagonal arrow to align with the church steeple and (perhaps) the Mairie, we get the Alpha MEBU, part of Alpha, Beta and Gamma on the western side.

[Gunner 87]

4 hours ago, WhiteStarLine said:

Not quite.  Argus, Neptune and Uranus were astride the road towards Bullecourt, each about 500 metres apart and well SE of Croisilles.  Argus & Neptune were marked as destroyed on a March 1918 map.  Neptune was 750 metres from Bullecourt, so very close to that town.  The closest was Uranus and it was 1,450 yards south of the church.

However, there were plenty of concrete structures as candidates for your original position.  Check the 3 on the northern side of Sensee Trench just over the river.  Or if we rotate your diagonal arrow to align with the church steeple and (perhaps) the Mairie, we get the Alpha MEBU, part of Alpha, Beta and Gamma on the western side.

OK thank you. At least were now 100% got the right location. Also, I joined the WFA this morning as I was so impressed with the Trench Mapper. Found the position 241 SB were at on the day Spieling was killed. Plenty of shell holes round where the gun position was...... so thank you for that as well. 

 

Edited 15 September , 2023 by Gunner 87

[mebu]

The bunkers in the pic are here, marked on the map..

Peter

[stripeyman]

The last two photos of the emplacement. I would think that they are still there. a massive job to remove them plus cost. They are not an impediment to agriculture and on a slope at the edge of a wood.

[Gunner 87]

16 hours ago, stripeyman said:

The last two photos of the emplacement. I would think that they are still there. a massive job to remove them plus cost. They are not an impediment to agriculture and on a slope at the edge of a wood.

The Musée Ligne Hindenburg posted an article from April 2022 that may indicate the structures have been demolished, or on private land and can't be accessed hence no images online. Although it is not clear whether the block houses have been removed the images match google street view which appears to suggest they maybe the ones to the north of the village as identified above. 

This is the text accompanying the three images.

'It's like something like Deja Vu... 106 years later...

Nearly a hundred years apart these images. As the Hindenburg Line was built, the Germans did more than dig their line of defense, they also provided a large number of infrastructure to enable the line to be built. Like in Fontaine Les Croisilles, at the location of the current football field (between Fontaine and Chérisy) where they have set up a unit forming concrete iron, sharpening and material storage. Today, a wind turbine construction HQ has chosen this same location.

Coincidence doesn't stop there. From this location, at the time of the Hindenburg Line, rails (Route 60) went all the way to the planned concrete construction sites. Today the wind turbine site is working on these same sites. The construction site allowed to rediscover buried sites since the 20s.

Unfortunately, despite the ban on access to the construction site, and despite the sites on private land, artifacts from the ground that could help hone our knowledge of these sites are disappearing. If people recognize themselves reading these lines, they can still contact us to do a good deed by allowing them to gather "their findings" with those fortunately defensively saved from oblivion...'

I have contacted the museum to confirm whether the fortifications are still present and will revert back should they answer. 

@WhiteStarLine

@mebu

 

Edited 17 September , 2023 by Gunner 87

[mebu]

Here's another pic of Bob's photo, at the location marked on the map above.

[mebu]

Regarding the LHSC comment, below is the rail siding at Fontaine where the construction materials were delivered, with the steel-bending sheds on the edge of the village.

This was until recent years the village football pitch. 

And up on the Heninel Hill, the structure shown in the LHSC report nearing completion.

Then, with new occupants.

 

Peter

[mebu]

The construction of these pill boxes are well documented, with engineers' drawings, tunnel digging, and concreting all fully recorded.

Some of the British lads were so pleased they made drawings.

Unfortunately modern progress and the need for wind energy has seen these disappear.

PS if you need info on the Hindenburg Line, see "The Hindenburg Line" in the Battleground series. 

Peter

[Gunner 87]

@stripeyman @WhiteStarLine @Michelle Young @mebu   

 

Hi Guys.

I have had a response from Musée Ligne Hindenburg stating that the German artillery bunker I Stripeyman's photograph still exists located in the wood close to the ex football pitch. This is in a private feed and there is normally no access.

The square where the worksite container is now located was, in 1916, a German workshop dedicated to raw materials for the Hindenburg Line bunkers. This area is now used by wind turbines workers.  

The remains of MEBU were located close to an other bunker still in place between Croisilles and Heninel. It was totally destroyed during / after WWI as it was used to dispose of left over munitions. This was evident by the number of unexploded ammunition found around it. A wind turbine is now on situated on the emplacement. 

Gunner 87

 

Edited 19 September , 2023 by Gunner 87

[mebu]

Yes indeed it is still there, hence the photo 2 posts up, with the photo of the incoming construction materials and the steel bending shed.

Peter