Pte. John TYNEMOUTH, 28847, Manchester Regiment

[Matlock1418]

Images thanks to WFA/Fold3

MIC shows enlisted 28.8.15 and shows BWM & VM [so service in a ToW after 31/12/15]

Discharged with a SWB listing 25.10.17 [3rd Bn rather looks like a pre-discharge administrative posting]

Claimed for an unspecified disability pension and awarded 27/6 pw from 26.10.17 to 27.11.17 [100% rate - but a short award that might suggest a feeling his condition would get better quickly ??]

Father claimed a dependant's pension on his death, 26.12.17, but no indication of any award

From FreeBMD - Deaths Dec 1917 Tynemouth John 44 Southwark 1d 42 [Age discrepancy with MIC]

Not recorded at CWGC

There's apparently a Service Record at Ancestry [probably also Find My Past] which I can't access - so I hope another member might please have a look and report back = Any indication as to the reason for his discharge?

And is there any newspaper reporting ???

I know with Pneumonia as a cause of death it is looking rather slim as a potential Non-comm - but based on the above  ???  Looking at that SR seems likely to be necessary, either way, before any consideration of spending on a DC.

Thanks in anticipation.

M...

Edited 13 September , 2023 by Matlock1418
typo

[BarbaraG]

Found a reference for John here but no further information as yet.

https://issuu.com/battlefieldsleuth/docs/forgotten_battalion.docx

[busterfield]

Born Sheppy 1873/4 ?

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, BarbaraG said:

Found a reference for John here but no further information as yet.

https://issuu.com/battlefieldsleuth/docs/forgotten_battalion.docx

Thank you.  An interesting resource, so "well done" to the authors = The Forgotten Battalion of the Manchester Regiment, Volume 1

Interesting that it indicates he was 20th Bn - One suspects the SR as the probable source.

Subject to finding the primary this source of his cause of discharge it looks from this document like he was discharged due to a Cardiac condition [not identified as specificly as DAH/Soldier's heart so possibly, though in this report it was indicated several times as such elsewhere, might perhaps have been VDH ???] and yet he died of Pneumonia, which either way, wouldn't have been helped by pneumonia or helped pneumonia - with the latter being given as his cause of death.

The only hope now is to possibly find an official document providing linkage between his cardiac condition and pneumonia - one suspects there is a possibility that a DC which might list Pneumonia as the primary cause of death and a Cardiac condition as a secondary condition.  Though any causation or aggravation by military service probably unlikely to have been mentioned - Even then with that status, and a DC being a civilian/non-military document, I think the chances of CWGC commemoration are likely to be low.

But one never knows what might turn up in time.  We'll just have to let this run and see what emerges.

M

[BarbaraG]

Sorry can't decipher details on Pension Record but....

[Matlock1418]

33 minutes ago, busterfield said:

Born Sheppy 1873/4 ?

Thank you ...  I'm presuming the year came from 1917 - 44 = 1873

GRO seems to give that Registration District as Sheppey [which is in Kent - and that would seem to match with his father living in Erith, Kent]

TYNEMOUTH, JOHN    SIGGERS [Mother's Maiden Name]  GRO Reference: 1873  S Quarter in SHEPPEY  Volume 02A  Page 760

I suspect for now we are deviating into a rabbit hole [so after a quick check for his parents - which was unsuccessful, I'm not going further with that for now!].

M

15 minutes ago, BarbaraG said:

Thank you - as suspected = Valvular Disease of Heart [VDH] at discharge - and an earlier GSW from a shell in May 1917

The rest is going to take some more work!!!

Quickly perusing ... it looks like he had suffered with shortness of breath since being hospitalised in July 1917 but only his GSW Received in Action was attributed to his service.

M

Edited 13 September , 2023 by Matlock1418
expand

[BarbaraG]

Background info. Family in Erith, Kent but on enlistment John working in Manchester as a Labourer.

Sister shown on Soldiers' Effects Register - Mrs Margaret VOUSDEN

1911 Census Father shown as Boarder at home of VOUSDEN Family- 33 Thanet Road, Erith, Kent

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, BarbaraG said:

Background info. Family in Erith, Kent but on enlistment John working in Manchester as a Labourer.

Sister shown on Soldiers' Effects Register - Mrs Margaret VOUSDEN

1911 Census Father shown as Boarder at home of VOUSDEN Family- 33 Thanet Road, Erith, Kent

Thank you.

His father, Matthew TYNEMOUTH, and his mother, SIGGERS, appears to leads me to their marriage and his mother's forename.

Surname	First name(s)		District	Vol	Page
Marriages Sep 1865   (>99%)
Siggers	Anne		Lewisham	1d	1148
Tynemouth	Matthew		Lewisham	1d	1148

M

[PaulC78]

@8055Bell might be able to help, I believe he's already looked at this case.

[Matlock1418]

6 minutes ago, PaulC78 said:

@8055Bell might be able to help, I believe he's already looked at this case.

Thanks for giving him a mention - I believe he came to pretty much the same conclusion in the above book [I believe he was one of the authors] = Unlikely/can't be proved for commemoration at the moment.

But would be interested to hear from him to see if he has any further info.

M

Edited 13 September , 2023 by Matlock1418

[8055Bell]

Hi All,

The Manchesters Forum has a huge list of cases where men died in the qualifying period but we can't prove cause of death was connected with service.  Bernard Mcilwaine (Mack) picked up John Tynemouth's case in 2018 and I found the WFA card in 2020. As none of the military records mention pneumonia during service, we have no evidence to justify commemoration.  Using the words of Terry - pneumonia is a short term disease - so he probably caught the condition after discharge.  No doubt the GSW & VDH were contributory factors but they wouldn't be material unless they are mentioned on the DC.  This may be the case but I draw a line on the most likely cases when paying £7 for DCs.  If they were free (as Ireland) or cheaper (Scotland) my position would be different.  At least people can see John Tynemouth is remembered in the Forgotton Battalion eBook.

Tim

ps It's even harder to justify paying £7 on uncertain DCs when some cases take more than 3 years to adjudicate, grave finds even more and new headstones longer....

[Matlock1418]

8 hours ago, 8055Bell said:

The Manchesters Forum has a huge list of cases where men died in the qualifying period but we can't prove cause of death was connected with service.  Bernard Mcilwaine (Mack) picked up John Tynemouth's case in 2018 and I found the WFA card in 2020. As none of the military records mention pneumonia during service, we have no evidence to justify commemoration.  Using the words of Terry - pneumonia is a short term disease - so he probably caught the condition after discharge.  No doubt the GSW & VDH were contributory factors but they wouldn't be material unless they are mentioned on the DC.  This may be the case but I draw a line on the most likely cases when paying £7 for DCs.  If they were free (as Ireland) or cheaper (Scotland) my position would be different.  At least people can see John Tynemouth is remembered in the Forgotton Battalion eBook.

Tim,

Thanks for the reply and info. ... As I had come to think [about commemoration and the expense required!]  Glad your book has his details even if not at CWGC.

8 hours ago, 8055Bell said:

ps It's even harder to justify paying £7 on uncertain DCs when some cases take more than 3 years to adjudicate, grave finds even more and new headstones longer....

Challenging isn't it?

M

Edited 14 September , 2023 by Matlock1418
typo

[8055Bell]

Thanks M,

Even more challenging when CWGC don't bother publishing next of kin and basic address any longer.  Their predecessors wouldn't accept this.

T