Mules and Horses

[Jim Strawbridge]

I happened to be checking out a David Scott of the Royal Irish Rifles through the CWGC website to see if he was a casualty. My eyes fell on a David Scott, Muleteer, who died on the S.S. Russsian on the 14th December 1916 and a David Scott, Horseman, who died on the S.S. Cabotia on the 20th October 1916. These were both Mercantile Mariners. Like the Scotts I am all at sea. Surely if they were transporting horses/mules there would have been A.S.C. or R.A. personnel on board to deal with them. There must be a simple explanation that I am missing.

[michaeldr]

Per Wiki the SS Russian was in ballast when she was sunk
which seems to imply that there were no military personnel, equipment, stores or livestock onboard.

Re SS Cabotia, this site http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11041 the ship was carrying 300 horses from North America to England and they were accompanied by 15 'Horsemen' (two of whom were listed as "Assistant Foreman (Horseman")
Is it possible that as the 300 horses were en route to the UK and in the care of these Horsemen, but not yet delivered to the ASC and therefore they were not yet in the army's care?
See also pages 136-142 here https://archive.org/details/merchantseamanin00cornuoft/mode/2up?q=cabotia for further details on the loss of this vessel

[KizmeRD]

It is reckoned that more than 600,000 (some sources say 1,000,000) mules and horses were transported from America to Europe during the war (mainly sailing from the ports of New Orleans and Newport News). Civilian Muleteers were employed to feed, water and muck-out the animals during the delivery voyages. They tended to be black American horsemen from southern US states.

MB

ss Russian was sunk off Malta, having just delivered supplies to Salonika. She was returning to Newport (S. Wales) in ballast.

ss Cabotia was sunk in North Atlantic, en route to UK.

Edited 10 September , 2023 by KizmeRD

[MerchantOldSalt]

It was standard practice for many years for the crews of cargo ships carrying small numbers of live stock, certainly up to 40 or 50 horses and cows to be expected to look after them on voyages of some length, despite the fact that they had no training in animal welfare.  Purpose built livestock carriers, or ships converted to carry large numbers of beasts would carry extra personnel to look after them but not all were trained to do so as is sometimes the case during the shipment of horses and mules from the US to UK during WW1.

There are many service records of British ex-pats, Americans and Canadians enlisting in those countries into the British Army and being expected to look after mules and horses on the Atlantic Crossing as part of their passage to the war.  Whilst I can only say with certainty that this was the case for men enlisting into the IWT of the Royal Engineers, as that is my research,  there are no doubt many others who were employed on horse transports.

There are quite a few letters in service papers like the one attached from disgruntled servicemen who having crossed the Atlantic on livestock transports, only then served in the UK so were not, apparently, entitled to medals or what they perceived as decent recognition of their services.  This caused much ill feeling as can be seen from just one example of Sapper Walter Evans' Service Record.  WR 600012.  He was a riveter by trade

Tony

[stevenbecker]

We have the same problems and workers who go with our Live Sheep export on ships to the Arab/Muslim counties

These ships are huge and carry many thounsands of sheep and carry out the jobs mentioned to keep them alive

[wallace2]

David Whitton, born in Dundee was another victim of the sinking of the SS Cabotia (Glasgow).     His rating was listed as a Horseman           

Aged 29    Address 147 Richmond, Toronto, Canada.                                                                                        
 

[Jim Strawbridge]

A recent tv snippet stated that livestock was accompanied by members of the Army Veterinary Corps. That would make sense having someone to look out for the animals health with seamen employed to feed, water, set bedding and clean out.

[abbrover]

254200 Driver Thomas Walter Haycocks, Base Horse Transport Army Service Corps, was transporting horses from Salonika to Alexandria on board the H.T. Cameronian (5,861 GRT) when she was torpedoed 50 miles north west by north 1/4 north from Alexandria, Egypt, with the loss of 11 lives - including the Ship's Master, on 2nd June 1917

Regards

Pete

[KizmeRD]

As I understand it, arrangements for the provision of care for horses and mules during importation into UK were different than they were for deliveries from Remount Depots into actual theatre(s) of war.

MB

[58 Div Mule]

Have a look at the wreck of SS Armenian. Sunk off of Trevose Head, Cornwall with her cargo of 1,400 mules being imported from the eastern seaboard of the USA.

Among her multi-national crew were a number of men of Afro-Caribbean descent who are described as Muleteers. Some of these men were amongst the casualties resulting from the sinking.

Lots of info on the WWW.

58 DM.