Need ID on SAWBACK KNIFE ...........

[ersatz]

I'm hoping the membership can help me with information on this Sawback Knife.  The unit is light weight and nicely balanced.  The blade itself measures 11.25 inches, with an overall length of 17 inches.  It has a cutting edge on top with sharp double sawteeth on the bottom.  There is a solid brass cross guard with the top quillon having a hook to secure the retaining strap.  Unit marking is 3.J.25. with WK on the ricasso.  I believe the frog is riveted to the scabbard.  Scabbard throat has a metal guide to protect the leather from the sharp sawteeth.  A well made piece.  I feel the wood handle closely resembles the heavy Austro-Hungarian Short Sword.  Any & All input would be very much appreciated.  

[JMB1943]

Ersatz,

Very nice-looking (and wicked-looking) piece.

Presumably, W K = Weyersburg Kirschbaum, so made in Germany; other than that, I am clueless!

Regards,

JMB

[AndyBsk]

WK is stamped per single stamp, so more real is the owner or other stamp, with WKC has it nothing probably. Personally i saw it on GU as presented probably by You or other, it more looks like a tool , for me the stamp on crosspiece is strange, as this should be a sawback tool in first purpose not a combat weapon. The sawback is effective made, and usable, not to compare the KS98 weakly tooth sawback. It would be nice to present the cutting edge as this looks too thick for cut.

Edited 10 September , 2023 by AndyBsk

[ersatz]

Thank you JMB and AndyBsk for your comments.   ANDY - I am not familiar with your reference to GU.  What is it?   I myself haven't posted this blade anywhere.  I would like to view the presentation if you would refer me to the source.   I've posted three additional photos featuring the blade itself.  The sawback blade cuts a clean 5/16" kerf with ease and the knife edge has a nice factory ground cutting edge.  

I am curious of the Unit marking .........  If this is an Austro-Hungarian piece, would the " J " refer to " Jager "?

 

Edited 10 September , 2023 by ersatz

[AndyBsk]

Maybe someone other added it on Gunboard forum, this was the shortage for, i assume the blade is not for cut, as the edge is too short for me. The edge on last picture is for me too shallow, i believe it was not period there but added by someone,  You should add picture of the edge from upper position and measure the thickness of the blade edge, the handle even You believe is a austro inspired, is probably not, 3J would mean by germans 3I also Infanterie as the I was not used as could mistakly determined as romanian I nummer. I believe this is a specialised tool, maybe for some medicals, or other branch not used by normal soldier. The scabbard is upgraded for a sawback blade, that would not damage the mouth. so from this i dont believe this had other function as the sawback tool. I would proof remove the leather buffer, maybe something is under it, some stamps or so.

Edited 10 September , 2023 by AndyBsk

[ersatz]

I did try removing the leather buffer, however, I stopped as it would have compromised the entire leather piece.  I know it doesn't mean much but I did find a #12 stamped on the face of the hook quillon (serial #12 ??? ).   I did see that the frog was held to the scabbard by a rivet which also held the metal sawtooth guide.  Thickness of the sawback is 5/16".  The scabbard itself has me wondering that it is not for field use as the scabbard and frog don't appear rugged enough for the field, also the brass drag.  Still puzzled and will pursue more research, etc.  

Thank you!

[AndyBsk]

The scabbard looks like hunter or similar purpose item, yes the 12 could be serial number. The owner could be a soldier of 3.J.Regiment, similar stamps was observed on dress bayonets too, doesnt mean it was service weapon. Anyway the sawback is excellent made,same as the scabbard.

[bert.f]

Hello,

maybe its the sword of the Austro-Hungarian fire brigade ?

[AndyBsk]

This is too short for a sword.The scabbard and system of blade securing in bard s atypical for AU.

[bert.f]

Youre right , too short for a sword.  what remains is production for the forester-hunter

 

[trajan]

And not obviously intended as a penetrating / stabbing weapon. I reckon a tool of some kind.

Julian

[dman]

Possible a Faschinen Messner (Fascine Knife)  issued to troops to cut wood/brush for field fortifications  It was issued to a NCO in each company for that purpose

They were recalled and saw tooth ground off because of accusations that is was too gruesome a weapon  

  

[Rafal1971]

Just search for a moment on the Internet and the mystery is solved

 

Photo is from this page Pruning | Virtual Museum (oldgardentools.co.uk)

 

[bert.f]

7 hours ago, Rafal1971 said:

Just search for a moment on the Internet and the mystery is solved

 

Photo is from this page Pruning | Virtual Museum (oldgardentools.co.uk)

 

 

mystery solved ?, you mean the saw shape ?

[AndyBsk]

As mentioned this is a saw tool, anyway i doubt it would have so expensive scabbard by normal garden using.

[bert.f]

The shape of the saw is similar to that of the Swiss Army knife woodsaw,

maker WK, meybe Wenger ?

[AndyBsk]

Already mentioned the stamp is done per single stamp, so not real a maker, and Wenger used only W on bayonets not K. W is here doubble stamped but K not.

Edited 15 October , 2023 by AndyBsk

[Minenwerfer]

I've seen a variation of this type of personal saw year's ago in the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum in Vienna. 

[AndyBsk]

This sawback knife/tool is reported in Eickhorn catalog of Blankewaffen in production bis 1933 under number 1374, unfortunally i dont have the description, it was in part of german Sidearms.

Edited 1 November , 2023 by AndyBsk

[ersatz]

Thank you Andy for your continuing efforts to help.  Much appreciated !   I will try to unearth further details from the referenced source.  

My best, TED

 

[AndyBsk]

I asked for more info one of the owners, but i assume there is not much more avialable in the catalog, evident is it was in german chapter, also probably no real austrian connection. There are other dress sidearm listed.

[ersatz]

Hello Andy, 

I am certainly impressed by your investigative abilities.  I also appreciate your thoughtfulness in helping a fellow collector.  Thank you very much for going that extra mile my friend ! ! !

GOOD COLLECTING, Ted

[AndyBsk]

Thanks for nice words Ted, it was a lucky hit, as i was searching for long blade KS98 and i found the piece in one row of this catalog, and could remember that was researched some weeks ago, unfortunally the catalog doesnt have any comments avialable, i asked already the owner for more info, but prior this time no response, anyway it was with various dress sidearms, i assume it could be a Jaeger or Pioneer dress Sidearm when 3J on the piece stamped?, maybe used for short time only?  The design is very well with very nice done scabbard. WK could be initials of the owner. When it would be maker marked, we could destine more precise the time frame. 

Edited 3 November , 2023 by AndyBsk

[AndyBsk]

Hello Ted, i got today a info from my german collector friend as this was in research by Rolf Selzer ,that this should be already pictured piece in Eugen von Halasz catalog or book, mentioned as Sanitätssäge used by medical corps, mainly by Freiwiligen Sanitaets Colonnen. It could be too not army personal, it was published in Hubertus catalog around 1900. same as here presented by Eickhorn catalog post 1920. as this item could be used too by medical personal of Fireworkers too in postwar period. The piece was not extra widely used.

 

Edited 26 December , 2023 by AndyBsk

[ersatz]

Hello ANDY, 

You certainly are persistent in your efforts to gather information on various edged weapons, especially those that are not often encountered.  My "hat is off to you" once again for continuing to supply details about the "Mystery" Sawback Knife I have.   The additional details and photo you have provided are much appreciated and you continue to be a valuable contributor to collecting fraternity.

Sincerely, TED