question about sketch map of Essex trench LOOS your opinions please

[weshallremember]

HELLO ALL

looking at the sketch and comparing it to the map

6c bottom left corner of the map

marked  with letters c   b  e   looks like it could be the hairpin on the sketch

so Essex trench would have been where it says German front LIne  

I THINK

trevor

[Howard]

I looked for Breslau in TrenchMapper and found Breslau Avenue at 36c.G.11.d.70.74. I started there as it is on your larger map.

Then I changed to the first map in the TrenchMapper list under the aerial photos and got this. It shows the Hairpin.

Looking for Essex Trench gives me 36c.M.14.b.58.22, a different location. I have also rotated one of yours to make life easier.

Which is your point of most interest?

Howard

 

[battle of loos]

good evening,

this sector are Hulluch & Haines to north of Loos.

michel

[Howard]

I could of course have just searched for Hairpin, that takes you to 36c.G.11.b.67.53.

I would guess that "Essex" in the smaller posted map refers to a unit not a trench name.

Howard

[weshallremember]

A BIT MORE INFORMATION WHICH MENTIONS ESSEX TRENCH

47th (London) Division – December 1915 to February 1916.

---

At the end of the second week in December the Division relieved the 15th Division in the north sector of the Loos salient, which included the quarries and the Hohenzollern Redoubt. The legacy of the awful fighting which had taken place in these trenches on and after 25th September, in the shape of half-buried bodies and a general atmosphere of mortality, alone made this part of the line almost uninhabitable, and there were other disadvantages. Near the quarries a precarious hold was maintained by us on some rising ground in front of our main line by two long parallel saps which ran across to the German line. We held these saps and piece of trench joining their heads, and so completing the Hairpin. We also held a piece of Essex Trench, which continued the top of the Hairpin southwards. An equally high value was set on this position by our Higher Command and by the Boche. The former looked upon it as a valuable tactical point; the latter as a piece of their front-line system insolently occupied by the enemy. The day after the Division took over the line the enemy raided Essex Trench. This raid, and another, was successfully repulsed by the 15th Battalion, who had three anxious days defending the position. Their success in doing so earned the praise of the Corps Commander (Sir Henry Rawlinson). A few days later the Boche renewed his efforts, and succeeded in bombing the 15th Battalion out of some twenty yards of Essex Trench.

18TH OCT 1915

 

9TH ESSEX REGIMENT WERE ORDERED TO SECURE THE PORTION OF THE TRENCH TAKEN SOUTH WEST OF THE QUARRIES G6c TO G12a

 

ESSEX REG WAS RELIEVED BY 12TH HIGHLAND LIGHT INF ON 21ST OCT 1915

 

[weshallremember]

[Howard]

There is an Essex Lane 2,000 yards SE of the Hairpin and Essex Trench 4.5 miles SW, both much too far away.

In the history of the 4th, London, it mentions the Hairpin, Essex Trench and Shipka Pass as per the diagram in your WD page but I cannot see Essex Trench or Shipka Pass on any maps (I have not looked at all of them).

In TrenchMapper, probably the best map is m_82_000484. Either search for Hairpin and choose the first map after the aerial photographs or right click, choose Map ID jump and use m_82_000484.  That map is very close to the right date.

Being a divisional WD, the level of detail looks a bit odd.

I have tried but failed to match the sketch with m_82_000484 even ignoring trench names, this all the while taking the Hairpin, location West of the Quarries and being shelled from (4,800 yards away) Wingles as being correct.

It seems Essex Trench was a name not entered on the maps, at least not on the ones we have. Rats Alley does not list one here either.

This history says   "The centre of this fighting was a work held by the British, known as the Hairpin, and two saps, Essex Trench and Shipka Pass, which pushed forward from the Hairpin towards the German lines." That is a bit ambiguous, is that two saps plus Essex Trench and Shipka Pass or have they named the two saps Essex Trench and Shipka Pass. If the latter, then m_82_000484 shows Left Leg and Right Leg which matches the description of the action and (very crudely) the sketch map so perhaps those saps are Essex Trench and Shipka Pass.

Howard

 

 

[brianmorris547]

Didn't we resolve this last year.

Brian

[weshallremember]

hello Brian

thanks to you yes

i just wanted to confirm the sketch relates to the map

and that the Essex trench bit would have been at the start of the german line on the map

 sorry had so much info on this just trying to tidy my records up

trevor

[weshallremember]

MARKED IN BLUE WHERE I THOUGHT IT WAS 

 

[brianmorris547]

Trevor

Also read the WD of 44 Infantry Brigade, 15 Div. From 01 to 14/12/1915 lots of mentions of Essex Trench, the Hairpin et al.

Brian

[brianmorris547]

Trevor

These are from the December 1915 WD of 9 Royal Highlanders (Black Watch). 44 IB of 15 Div. So the page from 47 Div is not the only piece of paper in the world which shows Essex Trench. There may be more.

I am trying to find C1 and C2 sectors. I know the bounds of C Sector.

TNA/Ancestry WO 95/1937.

Brian

[MrEd]

I looked at this sector when looking at the east Surreys in 1915 and the battle of loos - without checking my notes (not to hand sorry) but I think there is references to this area in the 7th division war diaries to, from what I can recall, although I would have focussed on september and October 1915 - but the German lines seem very familiar to me - shipka and Essex I think were dug later

Edited 9 September , 2023 by MrEd

[weshallremember]

many thanks Brian

superb find clear as day

trevor

 

 

[Interested]

The Black Watch sketch looks quite accurate to me, and adding true N as well as compass N really finesses it, IMO.

[battle of loos]

good morning,

this is the aerial view today  to the old quarry (red circle) :

1 : Hohenzollern redoubt

2 : Ste Mary A.D.S. Cemetery

michel

[brianmorris547]

5 hours ago, MrEd said:

I looked at this sector when looking at the east Surreys in 1915 and the battle of loos - without checking my notes (not to hand sorry) but I think there is references to this area in the 7th division war diaries to, from what I can recall, although I would have focussed on september and October 1915 - but the German lines seem very familiar to me - shipka and Essex I think were dug later

My initial interest was 2 Bn Yorkshire Regt of 21 IB, 7 Div. My Great Uncle Dan Morris first saw action in the Quarries on 25/09/1915. 

Brian.

[Howard]

Here are Brian's two maps fitted to Google Imagery using 8 ground control points and Polynomial 1 transformation.

Being sketches not "proper" maps, they fit where they touch but it gives some idea of where the points are on a modern representation.

Howard

[weshallremember]

thank you Howard

 

[MrEd]

2 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

My initial interest was 2 Bn Yorkshire Regt of 21 IB, 7 Div. My Great Uncle Dan Morris first saw action in the Quarries on 25/09/1915. 

Brian.

My interest is 7th btn east Surreys and my great uncle who was Kia in the quarries 13th October 1915. 7 east Surreys were part of 37 brigade , 12th division

Edited 9 September , 2023 by MrEd