Were French hospitals segregated?

[Dave1346]

I am trying to figure out how to introduce two protagonists, one Mustafa Aatkani, a colonial soldier from French Morocco and Henri Dubois, a soldier of the 151st Regiment.  In my graphic novel, these fictious characters were wounded at Verdun. I have included two different pictures of Verdun below. 

I am wondering if the hospital wards would have been integrated or segregated. If they were integrated, these characters could have had neighboring beds in the same ward. If the wards were segregated, I could have them meet through a chance encounter at a bar while both were on convalescent leave. 

The zouaves pictured below are 1/6 scale action figures. I improvised a uniform for colonial zouave using uniform elements from a WW1 French zouave and two different zouaves from the U.S. civil war. The resulting uniform was modeled using a benefit poster for wounded French colonial soldiers that was held in Paris in 1917. The officer is a 54 mm. scale union officer from the American Civil War that I digitally edited to use as a French officer for colonial troops. 

Just in case anyone was wondering, I only have one zouave. I photographed this figure in different poses and switched out the heads to create the illusion of having multiple figures. 

According to what I have researched, at the start of WWI, the French had 90,000 colonial troops under arms. After the war began, the French recruited nearly a half million colonial troops that included 24,300 Moroccans. As a matter of historical interest, the Moroccan Division became one of the most decorated units of the French army. Despite its name, the Moroccan Division included Algerians,  Senegalese, and Tunisians.  

I opted to use zouaves because I thought the uniforms were more visually interesting. The Moroccan Division also included Tirailleurs (light infantry), line regiments, Sphai cavalry, and artillery. 

In this picture, all of the casualties are 1/6 scale WWI posable action figures. All of the other figures are 1/35 scale hand painted miniatures. One of the nice things about working with a digital medium is that I can scale figures up or down as needed so that they all look the same size in any picture. 

 

 

[Ancre1917]

Hi Dave 

You might be better asking the question on this French language Great War site

https://forum.pages14-18.com

Richard

[FROGSMILE]

My understanding is that other than the initial treatment at unit level, called Regimental Aid Posts in the British service, along with any intermediate dressing station, the field and base hospitals were segregated between officers and men.  This wasn’t just a matter of social class, or the decorum that was fairly universal across Europe at that time, it was also a military protocol to prevent soldiers witnessing things they should not if discipline was to be observed subsequently.  In most hospitals this was achieved by having separate wards (tents or huts) for officers and men.  Further back in safe areas where convalescence could take place there were usually either completely separate facilities, or segregated facilities within a single perimeter.  France was not initially as well organised as Britain in setting up military medical facilities** and you might find it interesting and useful for your knowledge to read about a voluntary hospital set up to cater for French soldiers but staffed by British middle class volunteers: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hôpital_Temporaire_d'Arc-en-Barrois#:~:text=Hôpital Temporaire d'Arc-en-Barrois was an emergency,Corps during World War I.

**although British preparations were very far from good.

Edited 2 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Dave1346]

Thank you both for your replies. I had no idea that there was a French language site. 

While I knew that there were British volunteers for hospital staffs, I did not know that there were any at French hospitals.

I have already created a sequence of pictures for Henri Dubois to recover at a Catholic hospital. Since Henri also needs to meet another protagonist, a Scotsman named Ian McGregor whom I named after an elderly private tour guide I hired while visiting Edinburgh in 1992, I think I will have the two of them meet Mustafa at a pub while on convalescent leave. 

Pictured below is an early draft that I will have to fix because it includes an American doughboy. Although I had originally thought of having an American, a Scotsman, and a Frenchman (it almost sounds like a lead in for a bad joke) meet while recovering from their injuries, it belatedly occurred to me that the Americans didn't enter the war until 1917. My novel takes place in 1916. 

Knowing that civilians volunteered at hospitals will be useful since I needed a way to introduce an American heiress and her Japanese butler to these men. 

In this picture the Frenchman is recovering from a session of electroshock therapy. This radical treatment was prescribed because Henri Dubois was suffering from shell shock i.e. what we now call PTSD. In some medical circles it was thought that electroshock could literally shock a patient back to awareness. I read of one disturbing account of a British doctor who was so determined to cure a patient that in addition to electroshock treatment, he began burning the lit end of a cigarette onto his patient's hands. When he decided to increase the voltage, the patient is said to have recovered. I do not know if this recovery was genuine or if the patient only claimed to have recovered so as to avoid further torture. 

The nuns in this picture are all digital images of real nuns. The nurse is a WW2 action figure that I adapted as a WW1 nurse by lengthening her skirt and apron. 

 

The electroshock equipment above is quite real, though the chair had to be digitally restored since the original was in bad condition after having been left to the elements at an abandoned psychiatric facility. The doctor and nurse beside them are both real people. Henri Dubois and the nurse behind him are both 1.6 scale action figures.

In this draft, I have the American, Frenchman, and Scotsman talking over their opinions of the war. The American will be edited out to be replaced with Mustafa the Moroccan. The beer will be switched out for tea since Mustafa is Muslim.

As the men talked, their discussion focused upon the conduct of the war. All three men were concerned about how the generals seemed to be spending their lives like water. The conventional tactics of laying artillery barrages across enemy trenches prior to launching a mass assault was wasteful of human lives. During their discussion they conceived of the idea of a commando that could engage in irregular action much like the German Sturmtruppen who had been trained to infiltrate allied trenches. 

It should be noted that there were no British or French commando in WWI. The closest thing to irregular forces that the British had were the Australians long range patrol units in Egypt. These patrol units were created to fight a German supplied Bedouin tribe known as the Senussi. The Senussi crossed the Libyan border into Egypt and swept in to attack riding camels. In addition to harassing the British, the original goal for recruiting the Senussi was to use them with Turkish forces to assault the Suez Canal. This attack never took place because the Turks lost most of their best troops while fighting off an allied invasion at Gallipoli. 

The heavy Rolls Royce armored cars were unable to pursue the Senussi off road because they were too heavy for the sand. The British camel regiments were inexperienced and not familiar with the desert. Modified Ford cars with extra wide tires were formed into long range patrol units. These cars were used to find and pin the Bedouin in place where they could then be defeated by conventional forces.

Pictured here is a 1/35 scale miniature that was produced by John Jenkins Designs. 

This then is the completely fictional premise of my graphic novel. Three men on convalescent leave conceive of the idea of irregular tactics to use against the Germans. 

[knittinganddeath]

9 minutes ago, Dave1346 said:

Americans didn't enter the war until 1917. My novel takes place in 1916. 

If it is a matter of citizenship and the character does not need to be US military, then plenty of Americans served with Canadian forces prior to 1917. If the character doesn't need to be a soldier, there were also volunteer American medical staff, e.g. the American Ambulance Field Service.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, knittinganddeath said:

If it is a matter of citizenship and the character does not need to be US military, then plenty of Americans served with Canadian forces prior to 1917. If the character doesn't need to be a soldier, there were also volunteer American medical staff, e.g. the American Ambulance Field Service.

There were also several American volunteers in the British run French hospital whose details I linked above.  These details are all listed in the references, etc. at the bottom of the article.

Edited 2 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Dave1346]

35 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

There were also several American volunteers in the British run French hospital whose details I linked above.  These details are all listed in the references, etc. at the bottom of the article.

Very true but in thinking about it, I like the idea of a Moroccan character as a matter of diversity. I also think it's important to remember that this was a world war and that a lot of minorities served in the military or were engaged as common laborers. 

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

I sorry but what clap trap

"t should be noted that there were no British or French commando in WWI. The closest thing to irregular forces that the British had were the Australians long range patrol units in Egypt. These patrol units were created to fight a German supplied Bedouin tribe known as the Senussi. The Senussi crossed the Libyan border into Egypt and swept in to attack riding camels. In addition to harassing the British, the original goal for recruiting the Senussi was to use them with Turkish forces to assault the Suez Canal. This attack never took place because the Turks lost most of their best troops while fighting off an allied invasion at Gallipoli. 

The heavy Rolls Royce armored cars were unable to pursue the Senussi off road because they were too heavy for the sand. The British camel regiments were inexperienced and not familiar with the desert. Modified Ford cars with extra wide tires were formed into long range patrol units. These cars were used to find and pin the Bedouin in place where they could then be defeated by conventional forces."

Bull s--

The Ottoman attack came in Dec 1914 before the Gallipoli advanture and the Troops used were very good, the defeat was due to poor timing and lack of Fording boats then to the Troops, the Ottomans didn't recee the suez before hand and the Arrival of many Indian Troops

The Senissi were a Ottoman based and officered and supplied via the German weapons from the Ottomans. a few Germans went there during the war but one was killed by his Senussi soldiers

Soldiers is a misnomer also.

Many rode camels but also many rode horses or not at all.

No they never attacked Suez but did control a number of major villages in the Western desert from Siwi to the coastal towns (well known in WWII) 

IN 1914-15 the British had only one group of AC's and that was naval, the formed Cars patrols came later 1916 

But hat time the the so called British Camel Companies supporting the were Australian and they helped the AC on most of there missions and patrols into the western desert.

By the time the LCP arrived into the field the main Senussi forces had been defeated during the winter battles of 1915 early 1916 by British Infantry & Yeomanry and Australian LH and retreated back to there strong holds, and the few Naval AC's were of little use for some of the reason you mentioned.

Camels were the main reason we could push into the Senussi areas and we did that thats why the British increased the number of camel Companies being formed

It was the LCP that were they inexpirenced ones in the desert not the Camel companies as they had to lean to use there cars in the desert conditions.

Of cause thats just my poor opion

S.B

Edited 2 September , 2023 by stevenbecker

[FROGSMILE]

18 hours ago, Dave1346 said:

Very true but in thinking about it, I like the idea of a Moroccan character as a matter of diversity. I also think it's important to remember that this was a world war and that a lot of minorities served in the military or were engaged as common laborers. 

Bear in mind that they need to be able to communicate meaningfully if your storyline is to work, so you need to think quite carefully about Nationalities, unless your British character happens to be a prewar student of French.  That’s entirely possible among the Kitchener or Territorial units (e.g. HAC, Inns of Court, Artists, Civil Service Rifles, etc.) but exceedingly unlikely in the regular battalions.  Most British regular soldiers thought that shouting loudly the few pigeon French expressions that they’d picked up was sophisticated communication!

16 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

Mate,

I sorry but what clap trap

"t should be noted that there were no British or French commando in WWI. The closest thing to irregular forces that the British had were the Australians long range patrol units in Egypt. These patrol units were created to fight a German supplied Bedouin tribe known as the Senussi. The Senussi crossed the Libyan border into Egypt and swept in to attack riding camels. In addition to harassing the British, the original goal for recruiting the Senussi was to use them with Turkish forces to assault the Suez Canal. This attack never took place because the Turks lost most of their best troops while fighting off an allied invasion at Gallipoli. 

The heavy Rolls Royce armored cars were unable to pursue the Senussi off road because they were too heavy for the sand. The British camel regiments were inexperienced and not familiar with the desert. Modified Ford cars with extra wide tires were formed into long range patrol units. These cars were used to find and pin the Bedouin in place where they could then be defeated by conventional forces."

The Senissi were a Ottoman based and officered and supplied via the German weapons from the Ottomans. a few Germans went there during the war but one was killed by his Senussi soldiers

Soldiers is a misnomer also.

Many rode camels but also many rode horses or not at all.

No they never attacked Suez but did control a number of major villages in the Western desert from Siwi to the coastal towns (well known in WWII) 

IN 1914-15 the British had only one group of AC's and that was naval, the formed Cars patrols came later 1916 

But hat time the the so called British Camel Companies supporting the were Australian and they helped the AC on most of there missions and patrols into the western desert.

By the time the LCP arrived into the field the main Senussi forces had been defeated during the winter battles of 1915 early 1916 by British Infantry & Yeomanry and Australian LH and retreated back to there strong holds, and the few Naval AC's were of little use for some of the reason you mentioned.

Camels were the main reason we could push into the Senussi areas and we did that thats why the British increased the number of camel Companies being formed

It was the LCP that were they inexpirenced ones in the desert not the Camel companies as they had to lean to use there cars in the desert conditions.

Of cause thats just my poor opion

S.B

All good points Steve, but take time to draw breath and check and edit your text. 😂

Edited 3 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[stevenbecker]

Your right mate sorry, but I see red when wanta bees try to play these fictional games and distort history.

The question was asked about what happen during the celibrations of 2014-2018

I can say that the old John Wayne saying came to the for

when the legend become fact, print the legend.

We see a lot of that in movies and print in the last few years and unless we correct the Bull s--- then what is the future.

Yes its just ficton, but some readers also see fact, then we have problems.

[Dave1346]

1 hour ago, stevenbecker said:

Mate,

I sorry but what clap trap

S.B

When Frogsmile looked at my pictures, he didn't tell me that my dugout was "claptrap". He explained what he thought I had done wrong and worked with me to improve the accuracy of what I was trying to portray. 

From the outset, your tone was hostile and dismissive. While I don't understand your reference to "bees wanting to play fictional games," I'm fairly certain that this was an insult.

Although I have reasons for thinking the thoughts that I shared, I have decided to not engage with you because I have high blood pressure and do not need to add to my overall levels of stress. By day I'm a high school teacher and I'm already under considerable pressure because of on-going disciplinary issues with some insubordinate, argumentative, and disruptive students I have in my 7th period class. I turned to working on this graphic novel project by way of stress relief and because I've always had an interest in the Great War. 

You are not helping with my stress. Had you thought to ask me about my sources, I would have gladly shared them. I would have been happy to engage in civil discourse. As it was, you chose to go on the attack. While I am not a historian or even a professional artist, I take my work seriously and not appreciate the reference to "fictional games".

I do not need this grief. I certainly do not need to engage with you any further. I will instead beg everyone's pardon and take my leave of this site.

Good day.

Edited 2 September , 2023 by Dave1346
clarification

[stevenbecker]

I am sorry you see it that way Dave, I was trying in my poor way to show you that you appear to be swapping the changing around with many misconceptions.

Trying to introduce elements into your story to make it more interesting to you?

Surely you can do that with out some of what your trying to do with many changes to the characters without wondering into the land of make believe to suite your story?

I mean your showing us one area of fighting in France with Yanks, then wonder into Egypt for the Senussi rebelion? but out of time and space

Not only is it impossible but to be confussing?

I am only saying what your publisher would possibly say about this story line that it is all over the place.

Mate settle on a story line and stick to it

Cheers and good luck

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, Dave1346 said:

When Frogsmile looked at my pictures, he didn't tell me that my dugout was "claptrap". He explained what he thought I had done wrong and worked with me to improve the accuracy of what I was trying to portray. 

From the outset, your tone was hostile and dismissive. While I don't understand your reference to "bees wanting to play fictional games," I'm fairly certain that this was an insult.

Although I have reasons for thinking the thoughts that I shared, I have decided to not engage with you because I have high blood pressure and do not need to add to my overall levels of stress. By day I'm a high school teacher and I'm already under considerable pressure because of on-going disciplinary issues with some insubordinate, argumentative, and disruptive students I have in my 7th period class. I turned to working on this graphic novel project by way of stress relief and because I've always had an interest in the Great War. 

You are not helping with my stress. Had you thought to ask me about my sources, I would have gladly shared them. I would have been happy to engage in civil discourse. As it was, you chose to go on the attack. While I am not a historian or even a professional artist, I take my work seriously and not appreciate the reference to "fictional games".

I do not need this grief. I certainly do not need to engage with you any further. I will instead beg everyone's pardon and take my leave of this site.

Good day.

It would be a shame for you to leave in dudgeon, Dave, you’ve explained very well how your interest in WW1 gives you an outlet and acts as a stress reliever, and I know that though Steve’s words weren’t very diplomatic he wasn’t using them with any spiteful intent to deliberately upset you.  I hope that you might reconsider when the dust settles.  There are all sorts of characters who frequent this forum, just like with real life.

Sincere best wishes,

FS

Edited 3 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[knittinganddeath]

8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Bear in mind that they need to be able to communicate meaningfully if your storyline is to work, so you need to think quite carefully about Nationalities, unless your British character happens to be a prewar student of French

I wondered about this too! Perhaps a French mother is in order?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, knittinganddeath said:

I wondered about this too! Perhaps a French mother is in order?

Yes that could work well too.  Good point!  I recall that a WW2 British SOE agent, Violette Bushell, was born in France.  Her father, Charles Bushell, had met her mother Reine Leroy during WW1.  Something similar, but with a boy as the progeny would seem to fit the storyline that Dave has in mind.

Edited 3 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE