POW Regimental Cap Badges

[Mark Gamble]

This image shows a few cap badges that feature in a photograph of a group of POW's that were photographed in Germany during 1918. I would like to know if anyone has suggestions as to the identity of the bottom two badges (E) and (F). I have included the top four badges (A) Lancashire Fusiliers, (B) Somerset Light Infantry, (C) Gloucestershire Regiment, and (D) York and Lancaster Regiment, so that the relative sizes of badges (E) and (F) can be appreciated. Thank you for any suggestions. Regards Mark

 

 

Edited 31 August , 2023 by Mark Gamble

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Mark Gamble said:

This image shows a few cap badges that feature in a photograph of a group of POW's that were photographed in Germany during 1918. I would like to know if anyone has suggestions as to the identity of the bottom two badges (E) and (F). I have included the top four badges (A) Lancashire Fusiliers, (B) Somerset Light Infantry, (C) Gloucestershire Regiment, and (D) York and Lancaster Regiment, so that the relative sizes of badges (E) and (F) can be appreciated. Thank you for any suggestions. Regards Mark

 

 

F.  Is possibly Lancashire Hussars Yeomanry I think.

E.  Doesn’t look British.  It seems to be just a simple metal 5-pointed star.

 

Edited 31 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Mark Gamble]

Hello,

Thank you very much for your posting and the image. I too had thought the badge might be Lancashire Hussars, but was a bit unsure about the comparative sizes of the badges. I have not been able to find any other  badge as a match. I am writing an article for a WFA branch, and thought it a good idea if I could get a second person to confirm my ID. So I am really grateful that you have taken the time to correspond. I wondered if the five pointed star is taken from a broken Cameronians badge.

Thank you very much - Mark

[RussT]

Do you have a full image of the person wearing the cap in image E?

Russ

[FROGSMILE]

39 minutes ago, Mark Gamble said:

Hello,

Thank you very much for your posting and the image. I too had thought the badge might be Lancashire Hussars, but was a bit unsure about the comparative sizes of the badges. I have not been able to find any other  badge as a match. I am writing an article for a WFA branch, and thought it a good idea if I could get a second person to confirm my ID. So I am really grateful that you have taken the time to correspond. I wondered if the five pointed star is taken from a broken Cameronians badge.

Thank you very much - Mark

The star might be a broken piece from a Cameronian’s collar badge, in the sense that the size would be right, but I cannot see why that would be done.  Does he have black rifles buttons?

[Mark Gamble]

Here is a part of the photo, the two men are wearing POW uniforms. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Mark Gamble said:

Here is a part of the photo, the two men are wearing POW uniforms. 

The Cameronian’s are certainly the most likely based on the shape and size of the star.

[AOK4]

Remember that POWs in Germany were sometimes issued "new uniforms". As in this case, darekened uniforms with the yellow/brown stripes sewn in at the seams of the trousers and in the upper arms. There is no guarantee that the men belonged to the regiments of the badges on their caps.

Jan

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, AOK4 said:

Remember that POWs in Germany were sometimes issued "new uniforms". As in this case, darekened uniforms with the yellow/brown stripes sewn in at the seams of the trousers and in the upper arms. There is no guarantee that the men belonged to the regiments of the badges on their caps.

Jan

While it’s true that there have been some rare cases seen in past threads, e.g. I recall some Scottish examples connected with photographic portraits arranged in a POW camp and sent home, I don’t think it was a very common thing for ‘wrong’ cap badges to be worn.  Early in the war, especially before steel helmets were common most of the men would’ve had their insignia when captured.

In this case the central man from the Prince Albert’s Somerset Light Infantry has even fitted his regimental shoulder titles to the jacket of his POW uniform.  The Royal Navy rating with HMS VICTORY cap tally was almost certainly captured during the ill fated and early on attempt to defend Antwerp.

Edited 2 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[AOK4]

17 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

While it’s true that there have been some rare cases seen in past threads, e.g. I recall some Scottish examples connected with photographic portraits arranged in a POW camp and sent home, I don’t think it was a very common thing for ‘wrong’ cap badges to be worn.  Early in the war, especially before steel helmets were common most of the men would’ve had their insignia when captured.

In this case the central man from the Prince Albert’s Somerset Light Infantry has even fitted his regimental shoulder titles to the jacket of his POW uniform.  The Royal Navy rating with HMS VICTORY cap tally was almost certainly captured during the ill fated and early on attempt to defend Antwerp.

I remain skeptical. These darkened and altered (stripes) uniforms were not what the men were wearing when they were captured. They had to give in their khaki uniforms and were given these altered ones.

Jan

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, AOK4 said:

I remain skeptical. These darkened and altered (stripes) uniforms were not what the men were wearing when they were captured. They had to give in their khaki uniforms and were given these altered ones.

Jan

I’ve no quibble whatsoever regarding the uniforms Jan, my comment related solely to the insignia.  His two piece light infantry shoulder title is clear and matches the cap badge.

[AOK4]

34 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’ve no quibble whatsoever regarding the uniforms Jan, my comment related solely to the insignia.  His two piece light infantry shoulder title is clear and matches the cap badge.

It would be interesting if a study could be made with identified POWs in their POW uniforms and whether their insignia match their units.

Jan

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, AOK4 said:

It would be interesting if a study could be made with identified POWs in their POW uniforms and whether their insignia match their units.

Jan

Interesting but very difficult now of course, although it was possible in the case of those few Scottish fellows from very early in the war that I mentioned from that earlier thread.  

Edited 2 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[mancpal]

I’d have to check but feel sure my grandad had his Manchester Regt. cap badge when he was a prisoner at Gustrow and Gettorf,

Simon

[AOK4]

53 minutes ago, mancpal said:

I’d have to check but feel sure my grandad had his Manchester Regt. cap badge when he was a prisoner at Gustrow and Gettorf,

Simon

We would need as many pics as possible of course, and especially with men with the darkened uniforms with the yellow/brown stripes, issued by the Germans.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, AOK4 said:

We would need as many pics as possible of course, and especially with men with the darkened uniforms with the yellow/brown stripes, issued by the Germans.

To state the obvious it’s only feasible in those instances where we know the name and regimental number of the prisoner of war concerned regardless of how many pictures there are. 

Edited 2 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[mancpal]

I will try and find my grandads post card photos. I’m sure the other men on the group shot have their own regiments cap badges. 
I also have some names , regiments and service numbers on a list in my grandads notebook and I think on the back of one of the photos. If I can locate them I’ll post the one/ones I’m thinking of though they will be phone photos as I don’t have a scanner (nor access to one).

Simon

[Smithy26]

The man noted as 'E' in your picture may have a broken Star from the Cameronian badge, but its not a collar badge as mentioned above - they are tiny.  He does look quite like Pte. W.G. McGowan of 2nd Battalion from my research into the Regiment.  Similar chin and slightly crooked nose?  Thoughts?

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, Smithy26 said:

The man noted as 'E' in your picture may have a broken Star from the Cameronian badge, but its not a collar badge as mentioned above - they are tiny.  He does look quite like Pte. W.G. McGowan of 2nd Battalion from my research into the Regiment.  Similar chin and slightly crooked nose?  Thoughts?

He does look very similar.  Perhaps @PRC can show them side-by-side, which helps enormously.  On reflection I think that you’re right about the collar badge size, having seen the final issue pattern, but I’ve never had the opportunity to see one alongside that exact blackened brass equivalent from the 1914 period.  It would be a drastic modification of a cap badge and difficult to see how it would be fastened in place on the cap given the usual position of the securing loops.

Edited 29 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

22 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Perhaps @PRC can show them side-by-side, which helps enormously.

Happy to oblige @FROGSMILE but it isn't really anything more than any member with the most basic image editing software (like mine!) or the sort of app that seems to come bundled with modern smartphones, could do

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, (if any), remain with the current owners.

Lots of similarities and it would be easy to assign the differences down to angle of the head and the quality of the newspaper sourced image.  However not sure about the inner folds of his left ear, and the overall shape of his right ear. Plus of course we can't compare the hairline \ parting combination.

So while it can't be ruled out entirely as a match, my natural caution would be tentative about saying it's a 100% match.

Cheers,
Peter

[Smithy26]

What i should have added was McGowan was captured in fighting around Nesle 25/3/18 & was being held at Stendal POW Camp in Sept 1918.  Not sure if that fits in to the details on the photo?

Cheers,

Smithy

[FROGSMILE]

48 minutes ago, PRC said:

Happy to oblige @FROGSMILE but it isn't really anything more than any member with the most basic image editing software (like mine!) or the sort of app that seems to come bundled with modern smartphones, could do

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, (if any), remain with the current owners.

Lots of similarities and it would be easy to assign the differences down to angle of the head and the quality of the newspaper sourced image.  However not sure about the inner folds of his left ear, and the overall shape of his right ear. Plus of course we can't compare the hairline \ parting combination.

So while it can't be ruled out entirely as a match, my natural caution would be tentative about saying it's a 100% match.

Cheers,
Peter

Peter thank you for taking the time to use your software, I did not ask you in the sense of volunteering you for the guardroom and I’m sorry if that’s how it came across.  I’m reasonably competent with using a smartphone but not up to that level I’m afraid.

 With the benefit of seeing the two images now side-by-side I’m personally confident that they are not the same man despite a few similarities.

[PRC]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Peter thank you for taking the time to use your software, I did not ask you in the sense of volunteering you for the guardroom and I’m sorry if that’s how it came across.

Wasn't how it was taken at all

I spent too much of my working life being an organisational SPOF despite my best efforts not to be, so don't want to be a source of delay if I can help it. Especially as those with access to current generation AI assisted software can probably turn out better quality source images to then make a comparison with.

But as long as the side by side images assist then please continue to ask - I'm always up for the challenge!

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

Wasn't how it was taken at all

I spent too much of my working life being an organisational SPOF despite my best efforts not to be, so don't want to be a source of delay if I can help it. Especially as those with access to current generation AI assisted software can probably turn out better quality source images to then make a comparison with.

But as long as the side by side images assist then please continue to ask - I'm always up for the challenge!

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you Peter, I know that I’m not the only one to appreciate your very helpful efforts.