Irish Guards - Band WO/SNCOs 1905

[Glenn J]

This superb group has been posted before and this extract is from the version published on the Wikipedia page for the Irish Guards Band. It raises some interesting questions. Firstly, the tunic and sash as worn by the Bandmaster, Charles Hassell. At the time of this image, he was still a Warrant Officer (not being commissioned until 1919) but does not wear the ribbed tunic as per the members of his band. It appears to be a normal first class tunic as worn by the Sergeant Major and Quartermaster Sergeants etc. of his regiment. The sash, worn in the fashion of a Warrant Officer or SNCO appears to be that of a Commissioned Officer. The question here is when did the Foot Guards Bandmasters dispense with the more ornate tunic with breast lace and shoulder wings?

The establishment of a Foot Guards band for 1909 was 66 plus the Bandmaster, and including three Sergeants and three Corporals. In this group we appear to have four.  Everyone one of them is displaying subtle differences in uniform and weaponry.

To my understanding, the senior man in the band is “The Band Sergeant”. That being the case, the others are just “Sergeants in the Band”. I believe all were entitled to carry a sword. The Band Sergeant was entitled to first class clothing heavily laced at the collar with two cuff rings and obviously the “Staff Sergeants” cap.

In this photograph, the Band Sergeant appears in every respect to be clothed appropriately; first class tunic with two cuff rings, Staff Sergeants’ cap and sword.

The Sergeant to the other side of Bandmaster Hassel is also wearing first class clothing heavily laced at the collar with two cuff rings but does not appear to wear a sword.

The Sergeant next to “The Band Sergeant” is wearing a tunic laced as for the rest of the band and wears the “Staff Sergeants’” cap and also no sword; as one would expect for a SNCO not holding the actual appointment of “The Band Sergeant.”

The strangest is the Sergeant wearing the cap decorated as for the junior members of the Band, i.e. with just a narrow braid on the peak.

The questions that spring to mind:

1.            Why two individuals dressed as “Band Sergeants”

2.            Were they in fact, at this time all entitled to carry a sword?

3.            What is going on with Sergeant number four? Just promoted ?

Regards

Glenn

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Glenn J said:

This superb group has been posted before and this extract is from the version published on the Wikipedia page for the Irish Guards Band. It raises some interesting questions. Firstly, the tunic and sash as worn by the Bandmaster, Charles Hassell. At the time of this image, he was still a Warrant Officer (not being commissioned until 1919) but does not wear the ribbed tunic as per the members of his band. It appears to be a normal first class tunic as worn by the Sergeant Major and Quartermaster Sergeants etc. of his regiment. The sash, worn in the fashion of a Warrant Officer or SNCO appears to be that of a Commissioned Officer. The question here is when did the Foot Guards Bandmasters dispense with the more ornate tunic with breast lace and shoulder wings?

The establishment of a Foot Guards band for 1909 was 66 plus the Bandmaster, and including three Sergeants and three Corporals. In this group we appear to have four.  Everyone one of them is displaying subtle differences in uniform and weaponry.

To my understanding, the senior man in the band is “The Band Sergeant”. That being the case, the others are just “Sergeants in the Band”. I believe all were entitled to carry a sword. The Band Sergeant was entitled to first class clothing heavily laced at the collar with two cuff rings and obviously the “Staff Sergeants” cap.

In this photograph, the Band Sergeant appears in every respect to be clothed appropriately; first class tunic with two cuff rings, Staff Sergeants’ cap and sword.

The Sergeant to the other side of Bandmaster Hassel is also wearing first class clothing heavily laced at the collar with two cuff rings but does not appear to wear a sword.

The Sergeant next to “The Band Sergeant” is wearing a tunic laced as for the rest of the band and wears the “Staff Sergeants’” cap and also no sword; as one would expect for a SNCO not holding the actual appointment of “The Band Sergeant.”

The strangest is the Sergeant wearing the cap decorated as for the junior members of the Band, i.e. with just a narrow braid on the peak.

The questions that spring to mind:

1.            Why two individuals dressed as “Band Sergeants”

2.            Were they in fact, at this time all entitled to carry a sword?

3.            What is going on with Sergeant number four? Just promoted ?

Regards

Glenn

My knowledge of band protocols is zero and it’s a very specialised area as you know.  Regardless of regiment they were entitled to superior (usually sergeants quality) tunics and often special headdress too (the ‘round - or staff - forage cap being a good example in case).  I know even less about the Foot Guards bands, but like you am very interested.  After thinking about it a little my suggestions for investigation are:

1. Are not bands divided into sections for Brass and Woodwind?  If so one might be for each.  They appear to be equal status and perhaps for a large staff band divided and shared the duties and music practice supervision.

2. All those ranking as staff sergeants were entitled to swords, so it depends if both ranked as band sergeants sharing the duties as above.  In general drummers of all ranks had their own special pattern swords, and musicians (bandsmen) another pattern sword.  Both were Romanesque with simple cross hilts.  The drummers sword was abolished before the war, but the bandsmen kept their swords.

3. Your proposition of just promoted seems the most likely to me too.  Previously a Lance Sergeant and still with that cap, but having had tunic upgraded.  Getting a new cap presumably a clothing store matter unless peaks were changed in the Master Tailor’s shop, which also seems possible given the heavy duty machines provided for state dress in those days.  I know that they are done by contract tailors now, but I don’t think that’s necessarily the case back then when boy tailors began training aged 14 (12 until after the Boer War).

NB.  The Gold laced band tunics were discontinued when the Brigade of Guards returned to full dress for public duties after WW1 in the early 1920s.

Edited 28 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Glenn J]

Thank you for your response.

It is for me also unchartered waters! It also seems, looking at photographic evidence, the customs and regulations were changing immediately post war. Looking at some images on the grengds.com site,  It seems that following WW1, the Band Sergeant Major lost his extra lace (presumably because he was not elevated to Warrant Officer Class 2) but in a group photograph in the twenties, all three Full Sergeants in the band, including the formerly heavily laced Band Sergeant are wearing swords! (see below)

The chap in the photo with the wrong cap, may have been promoted whilst on the tour in Canada, precluding the immediate issuing/tailoring of his cap. As I believe all the band NCOS at the time wore gold chevrons, it would only have required putting on a sash to convent his upper body?

Regards

Glenn

[FROGSMILE]

53 minutes ago, Glenn J said:

Thank you for your response.

It is for me also unchartered waters! It also seems, looking at photographic evidence, the customs and regulations were changing immediately post war. Looking at some images on the grengds.com site,  It seems that following WW1, the Band Sergeant Major lost his extra lace (presumably because he was not elevated to Warrant Officer Class 2) but in a group photograph in the twenties, all three Full Sergeants in the band, including the formerly heavily laced Band Sergeant are wearing swords! (see below)

The chap in the photo with the wrong cap, may have been promoted whilst on the tour in Canada, precluding the immediate issuing/tailoring of his cap. As I believe all the band NCOS at the time wore gold chevrons, it would only have required putting on a sash to convent his upper body?

Regards

Glenn

Yes I think that all makes sense.  Bear in mind that the entire band still wore swords after the drummers ceased to do so.  I assume as that’s the case that all full sergeants would have had the staff sergeants sword and lance sergeants and below the Romanesque sword.  I‘m not sure when that ceased but I’m thinking probably between the wars.  What you’ve said about the sergeant with the ‘wrong cap’ but correct tunic and sash makes sense in the context I think.

I enclose a photo of a rank and file bandsmen’s sword, they commonly had a lions head pommel that makes them instantly recognisable. It was kept for a surprisingly long time without much change to its appearance.  Unlike the drummers sword whose final pattern was straight like a gladius, the bandsmen’s sword often had a slight curve, though there were some slight modifications in pattern over the century.

Also below is a rather long range photo that seems to show the Irish Guards band shortly before WW1, as they are still wearing gold laced tunics.  I think I can see the bandmaster marching on this the near side flank unless it’s a director of music, perhaps you can confirm as it’s a glass plate image and so good resolution despite the size. 

Edited 28 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Glenn J]

That is a wonderful photograph - thank you.

That is Bandmaster Hassell on the near side flank. Besides the Drum Sergeant, we can also see two sword wearing Band Sergeants, both with the double cuff ring.

Regards

Glenn

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, Glenn J said:

That is a wonderful photograph - thank you.

That is Bandmaster Hassell on the near side flank. Besides the Drum Sergeant, we can also see two sword wearing Band Sergeants, both with the double cuff ring.

Regards

Glenn

Thanks Glenn, the more we see the more we can learn of course, the problem is always the difficulty in getting our eyes on the photographs that we know are out there.

I can see the bandsmen’s swords too, that I forgot to mention were carried just behind the left hip in simple whitened buff frogs.  They were long enough to come down below the knee.

Edited 28 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[charlie2]

As the establishment of a Foot Guards band was 66 + 1, which is in effect 2 „normal strength“ bands at full Instrumentation, I would think the two Band Sergeants had responsibility for one „half“ (33 man) band each. Dividing responsibility between brass and woodwind would not really make much musical sense, having two full smaller bands of 33 would enable e.g. two concerts to be performed at two locations at the same time.

Charlie

[FROGSMILE]

48 minutes ago, charlie2 said:

As the establishment of a Foot Guards band was 66 + 1, which is in effect 2 „normal strength“ bands at full Instrumentation, I would think the two Band Sergeants had responsibility for one „half“ (33 man) band each. Dividing responsibility between brass and woodwind would not really make much musical sense, having two full smaller bands of 33 would enable e.g. two concerts to be performed at two locations at the same time.

Charlie

That makes sense Charlie and I think that the rationale you’ve explained makes the arrangement you’ve suggested very likely.

Edited 28 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Glenn J]

Thank you chaps.

With regards to the ribbed tunic of the Bandmaster; I came upon an interesting snippet in the work concerning the history of the Coldstream Guards Band, "Pomp and Circumstance" by John Gleeson, bemoaning the demise of the "rib-straked" tunic in that band for Bandmaster Mackenzie-Rogan upon his commissioning on 27 February 1904. As the Irish Guards image above was taken in 1905, it seems that the alteration to the tunics of the still Warranted Bandmasters of the other three regiments of Foot Guards was taken at the same time or in the period not long after Mackenzie-Rogan's elevation to commissioned rank.

Glenn

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, Glenn J said:

Thank you chaps.

With regards to the ribbed tunic of the Bandmaster; I came upon an interesting snippet in the work concerning the history of the Coldstream Guards Band, "Pomp and Circumstance" by John Gleeson, bemoaning the demise of the "rib-straked" tunic in that band for Bandmaster Mackenzie-Rogan upon his commissioning on 27 February 1904. As the Irish Guards image above was taken in 1905, it seems that the alteration to the tunics of the still Warranted Bandmasters of the other three regiments of Foot Guards was taken at the same time or in the period not long after Mackenzie-Rogan's elevation to commissioned rank.

Glenn

Excellent information Glenn, that certainly seems to fit with the timeline and circumstances.  I’m trying to understand John Gleeson’s description, “rib straked”, does he mean rows of horizontal pin tucking or red round cord worsted lacing, like the final pattern of Royal ADC’s discrete full-dress tunic shown in black and white below, or does he mean horizontal rows of overlaid gold lace like the Grenadier Guards bandsman and Royal Engineers band tunics (also below)?

I’m assuming the former and have been looking for a decent image of what he seems to be describing, but cannot find one.  I hope that the Guards Museum might have one.  Do you have any images of it?

Edited 29 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Glenn J]

FS,

basically the same as a Band Sergeant, minus any badge of rank. This from Charles stadden and a period photograph of Bandmaster Cadwallader Thomas from the 1890s.

Regards

Glenn

 

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, Glenn J said:

FS,

basically the same as a Band Sergeant, minus any badge of rank. This from Charles stadden and a period photograph of Bandmaster Cadwallader Thomas from the 1890s.

Regards

Glenn

 

Thank you, brilliant.  I’ll see if I can find a surviving example.

In the meantime I’m reposting images from an earlier thread on the Irish Guards band photo that were first shown by forum member GWF1967.  He says it’s a slightly different shot from a series that seem to have been taken on the same occasion**.  I thought they might be useful to add to this thread, I’m sure he won’t mind.

**he has traced the history of each man and says that the majority were experienced bandsmen who came from various line cavalry and line infantry regiments, plus some other Foot Guards bands.

Edited 29 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

And as a bonus a photo from before the 2nd Anglo/Boer War (I’d say perhaps 1890) of the Grenadier Guards corps of drums.  Note the enlisted boy drummers whose typical enlistment age at that time was 12-years old.

[FROGSMILE]

I couldn’t find an actual example, but here is a similar tunic worn by the Scots Guards WO Bandmaster.

Edited 29 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Glenn J]

It almost seems strange that the senior man in the band, the Bandmaster was without a badge of rank, yet his immediate subordinate, the Band Sergeant was identically clothed but with insignia of rank. It certainly appears that promotion in the Bands was glacial! Judging by the array of good conduct badges, some of these guys had years of service. It would seem that the percussionists were clothed with the extra arm braid.

Regards

Glenn

[FROGSMILE]

On 29/08/2023 at 17:37, Glenn J said:

It almost seems strange that the senior man in the band, the Bandmaster was without a badge of rank, yet his immediate subordinate, the Band Sergeant was identically clothed but with insignia of rank. It certainly appears that promotion in the Bands was glacial! Judging by the array of good conduct badges, some of these guys had years of service. It would seem that the percussionists were clothed with the extra arm braid.

Regards

Glenn

Yes I first found out about the percussionists (apparently known as ‘Time-Beaters’) arm braid some years back.

Apparently the bandmasters across the whole army didn’t originally have a badge, as they were all contracted civilians.  The RA’s BM, also a foreigner, was the first to have a special (unique) badge**.  The Army badge for BM was introduced 1881 I think, but the Guards eschewed it.

Afternote:   I’ve dug out my reference and evidence seems to suggest that the badge began to be worn between 1886 and 1887, (probably because they were warrant officers and most others of their grade had badges), but the authors are understandably not able to be definitive.

**which he allegedly refused to wear!

Edited 12 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Connecticut]

On 28/08/2023 at 13:59, FROGSMILE said:

 

 

Is this photo at Chelsea Barracks, pre-Great War?

Edited 11 October , 2023 by Connecticut
to focus the question

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, Connecticut said:

Is this photo at Chelsea Barracks, pre-Great War?

Yes, around 1910 I believe.  They are not bearing arms and are probably marching to church I think.

Edited 11 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Connecticut]

According to the book Up the Micks! and Hart's Annual Army List (online), the Irish Guards were in Windsor 1909 and later Aldershot.  Of course, the 1911 Census finds them at Chelsea Barracks, but the prior two sources have Tower of London for later in 1911, and then October 1912 in Wellington Barracks.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Connecticut said:

According to the book Up the Micks! and Hart's Annual Army List (online), the Irish Guards were in Windsor 1909 and later Aldershot.  Of course, the 1911 Census finds them at Chelsea Barracks, but the prior two sources have Tower of London for later in 1911, and then October 1912 in Wellington Barracks.

Unfortunately there’s no caption on the photo.  I assessed the approximate date from what I could see, hence my use of the qualifier “around”.

[Connecticut]

Thanks for your expert analysis; much appreciated.

[Glenn J]

On 29/08/2023 at 07:04, Glenn J said:

As the Irish Guards image above was taken in 1905, it seems that the alteration to the tunics of the still Warranted Bandmasters of the other three regiments of Foot Guards was taken at the same time or in the period not long after Mackenzie-Rogan's elevation to commissioned rank.

Just an update on the question of the Bandmasters' tunics. I just received in the post the latest edition of the "Bulletin of the Military Historical Society" and in an article regarding Foot Guards Bandmasters, Colin Dean writes:

"The uniform worn by the bandmasters on parade was normally similar to that of the musicians with the gold laced tunics worn up to 1939, although when conducting the bands in concert the bandmasters wore tunics without the lace." This then, would account for the tunic worn by Mr. Hassell of the Irish Guards above.

Printed in the article in the Bulletin is an excerpt from a group photograph of the massed bands in March 1917 showing the three (still) bandmasters of the Scots, Irish and Welsh Guards wearing the "ribbed" tunic.

Regards

Glenn

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Glenn J said:

Just an update on the question of the Bandmasters' tunics. I just received in the post the latest edition of the "Bulletin of the Military Historical Society" and in an article regarding Foot Guards Bandmasters, Colin Dean writes:

"The uniform worn by the bandmasters on parade was normally similar to that of the musicians with the gold laced tunics worn up to 1939, although when conducting the bands in concert the bandmasters wore tunics without the lace." This then, would account for the tunic worn by Mr. Hassell of the Irish Guards above.

Printed in the article in the Bulletin is an excerpt from a group photograph of the massed bands in March 1917 showing the three (still) bandmasters of the Scots, Irish and Welsh Guards wearing the "ribbed" tunic.

Regards

Glenn

Thanks for the update Glenn.  Very interesting, and upon reflection I can see why the policy was to not wear the ribbed tunic for concerts.  The marching bands and concerts each have their own tone. I’ve noticed that nowadays the bands often wear mess dress for the latter.

Edited 21 February by FROGSMILE