Anniversaries Crecy and Le Cateau

[phil andrade]

Two battles separated by 568 years.

How close are they in terms of distance ?

Not that far, surely.

Both fought by an English/British army on the defensive.

 

One an unequivocal and shattering English victory - with much owed to a contingent of Welsh archers - and the other controversial in both its inception and its result.

 

There’s an interesting conflation of the two in the folklore of the Great War , with legends of heavenly hosts of ghostly archers coming to the aid of the BEF at Le Cateau.

 

Phil 

[PhilB]

Wiki:-

There was a sizeable Welsh archer presence at Crecy, but not a majority: Edward III's army totalled about 13,500, of which about half were archers; 4,500 English and 2,000 Welsh.

[PhilC]

They are a little under 75 miles apart. Or in new money, 120 km.

There is another Crecy which is nearer, Crécy-sur-Serre about 30 miles to the south of Le Cateau-Cambrensis, but I don't know of any battles being fought there.

 

Were there any stories of archers at Le Cateau?

I'm aware of the angels/archers of Mons stories and a few other strange sightings during the retreat but I haven't heard about any being seen at Le Cateau.

 

[phil andrade]

A personal anecdote, if I may : on a family holiday, in 1965, Dad was driving us through France and we stopped for a picnic at Le Cateau.

 

Dad was a child of the immediate aftermath of the Great War, and he’d obviously been weaned on tales of The Retreat from Mons.

 

He spoke with an infectious enthusiasm about what had happened at Le Cateau, and his story featured the legend of the heavenly archers who intervened and repulsed the Germans with great slaughter.

 

He insisted that this was supposed to have happened there, at Le Cateau, an episode made all the more colourful by its occurrence on the anniversary of Crecy.

The impact on me as a twelve year old boy was quite profound, and this was close upon   the fiftieth anniversary of the Great War itself, when interest was aroused by the BBC 2 documentary series that had recently been broadcast.

 

Phil

 

[phil andrade]

How remarkable that the last few posts have been pitched by three Phils !

 

Thanks to you both, Phil B and Phil C, from Phil A !

 

[PhilB]

If this were the pedants` thread, I`d point out that I`m PhilB. There is a different Phil B out there!

The Battle of le Cateau was fought by a professional volunteer British army. What proportion of the Crecy men were professional and how many dragged from the plough?

[PhilC]

In the English armies (including people from Wales, Gascony and other areas subject to the English crown) of the period fighting in France, the vast majority were volunteers who were contracted, and paid, for particular campaigns. Some were retainers of a Lord so had to go when he went but they were still paid and they hardly needed to be dragged anywhere, let alone from a plough which I doubt any of them had ever touched.

People could be compelled to serve to defend their local area, particularly along the coast and the Scottish and Welsh marches but overseas, the army could be considered professional though not full time.

 

[Interested]

I think PhilB's question related to "the other side"...

[PhilC]

21 minutes ago, Interested said:

I think PhilB's question related to "the other side"...

Given that he was making a comparison with the British army at Le Cateau, I assumed he was referring to the army at Crecy which was also fighting on the defensive, i.e. the English one.

Only PhilB could say for certain though.

[phil andrade]

Didn’t the haughty French knights at Crecy take exception to the notion that they were confronted by men of low birth who were effectively mercenaries ?  Mind you, those were fighting for the French, too, in the form of Genoese crossbow men.  If my perception of the battle is correct, the Genoese came unstuck in a projectile contest with the British archers, and fled the field, whereupon they were ridden down by the angry Frenchmen.

 

Phil 

[PhilB]

I was actually thinking of the English army but the composition of either side is of interest. Maybe I’m being misled by my understanding that the Battle of Flodden, some 160 years later, was fought largely by non-professionals on both sides.

[phil andrade]

Ah, Flodden ! Another anniversary just passed a couple of days ago.  And a resonance of Crecy, too.  The massacre of nobility by the English in both cases.  And the death of Kings, too. The Blind King of Bohemia at Crecy, and the Scottish King James IV at Flodden.

 

Makes Le Cateau seem quite prosaic in comparison.

 

Phil

[PhilB]

Not only the Scottish King but:-

Earls

• Archibald Campbell, 2nd Earl of Argyll^[118]
• John Douglas, 2nd Earl of Morton
• William Graham, 1st Earl of Montrose^[118]
• William Hay, 4th Earl of Erroll, Lord High Constable of Scotland^[118]
• Adam Hepburn, 2nd Earl of Bothwell, Lord High Admiral of Scotland^[118]
• David Kennedy, 1st Earl of Cassilis^[118]
• William Leslie, 3rd Earl of Rothes^[118]
• John Lindsay, 6th Earl of Crawford^[118]
• William Sinclair, 2nd Earl of Caithness^[118]
• Matthew Stewart, 2nd Earl of Lennox^[118]

Lords of Parliament

• William Borthwick, 3rd Lord Borthwick^[118]
• Alexander Elphinstone, 1st Lord Elphinstone.^[118][119]
• Robert Erskine, 4th Lord Erskine^[118]
• John Hay, 2nd Lord Hay of Yester^[118]
• John Maxwell, 4th Lord Maxwell^[118]
• John Ross, 2nd Lord Ross^[118]
• John Sempill, 1st Lord Sempill^[118]
• George Seton, 5th Lord Seton^[118]
• Henry Sinclair, 4th Lord Sinclair^[118]
• Andrew Stewart, 1st Lord Avondale
• Thomas Stewart, 2nd Lord Innermeath
• Plus 55 other Chieftains, nobles and knights.  Noblesse oblige!

[PhilC]

35 minutes ago, phil andrade said:

Didn’t the haughty French knights at Crecy take exception to the notion that they were confronted by men of low birth who were effectively mercenaries ?  Mind you, those were fighting for the French, too, in the form of Genoese crossbow men.  If my perception of the battle is correct, the Genoese came unstuck in a projectile contest with the British archers, and fled the field, whereupon they were ridden down by the angry Frenchmen.

 

Phil 

The second point is correct. Neither the Genoese nor the French themselves, other than a few who had served in Scotland, had any prior experience of the effect of the arrow storm produced by massed archers employed by the English and when the Genoese started to flee, the French men-at-arms attributed it to a mixture of cowardice and a pre-planned betrayal. It may well be apocryphal as mediaeval chroniclers weren't noted for recording events exactly, but according to Froissart, when Philip VI, saw the Genoese running away, he called out "Quick quick, kill all this rabble! They embarrass us and get in the way for no reason."

The first is only partially correct though. The archers and Welsh spearmen were of low birth but the men-at arms were essentially the same mixture as the French ones, ranging from the King, down to knights and squires, although the French probably had a higher proportion of titled nobility. They formed half of the army and were the ones the French aimed for when they charged. I don't think the French took any exception to the fact that the English army contained a large number of low born commoners as armies in general had such a component. The French army at Crecy was unusual in that most of the low born infantry other than the Genoese mercenaries, being on foot, hadn't been able to keep up with those on horseback. Several of his commanders advised Philip to wait a day until they could join him, but partly because large numbers of his cavalry were chomping at the bit and partly out of a worry that the English would escape if he delayed, he elected to start the battle.

 

[phil andrade]

17 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Not only the Scottish King but:-

Earls

• Archibald Campbell, 2nd Earl of Argyll^[118]
• John Douglas, 2nd Earl of Morton
• William Graham, 1st Earl of Montrose^[118]
• William Hay, 4th Earl of Erroll, Lord High Constable of Scotland^[118]
• Adam Hepburn, 2nd Earl of Bothwell, Lord High Admiral of Scotland^[118]
• David Kennedy, 1st Earl of Cassilis^[118]
• William Leslie, 3rd Earl of Rothes^[118]
• John Lindsay, 6th Earl of Crawford^[118]
• William Sinclair, 2nd Earl of Caithness^[118]
• Matthew Stewart, 2nd Earl of Lennox^[118]

Lords of Parliament

• William Borthwick, 3rd Lord Borthwick^[118]
• Alexander Elphinstone, 1st Lord Elphinstone.^[118][119]
• Robert Erskine, 4th Lord Erskine^[118]
• John Hay, 2nd Lord Hay of Yester^[118]
• John Maxwell, 4th Lord Maxwell^[118]
• John Ross, 2nd Lord Ross^[118]
• John Sempill, 1st Lord Sempill^[118]
• George Seton, 5th Lord Seton^[118]
• Henry Sinclair, 4th Lord Sinclair^[118]
• Andrew Stewart, 1st Lord Avondale
• Thomas Stewart, 2nd Lord Innermeath
• Plus 55 other Chieftains, nobles and knights.  Noblesse oblige!

Flowers of the Forest.

 

Phil

[Pat Atkins]

To return to Crecy/Le Cateau coincidences, my grandfather had a brush with weaponry not dissimilar to that of the Crecy period - he was, apparently, taken prisoner at Le Cateau by some blokes on horses and carrying lances*. Not sure what his 1346 counterpart would've made of the RE cable wagon my grandfather was careering across the battlefield on, though, in futile search of the elusive 19th Infantry Brigade.

 

*OK, and no doubt the Uhlans in question were also armed with carbines, but why spoil a good anecdotal connection eh?

[PhilB]

I wonder if a billhook would actually make a better cavalry weapon than a lance. It would have the same advantages that it had for foot soldiers. (It can be swung as well as poked).  I can understand the cavalry taking a dim view of carrying a farmhand`s weapon though!

[phil andrade]

2 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

To return to Crecy/Le Cateau coincidences, my grandfather had a brush with weaponry not dissimilar to that of the Crecy period - he was, apparently, taken prisoner at Le Cateau by some blokes on horses and carrying lances*. Not sure what his 1346 counterpart would've made of the RE cable wagon my grandfather was careering across the battlefield on, though, in futile search of the elusive 19th Infantry Brigade.

 

*OK, and no doubt the Uhlans in question were also armed with carbines, but why spoil a good anecdotal connection eh?

Ironic to think of your grandfather facing a weapon that we associate with ancient warfare on a battlefield of the Great War, while we read of soldiers at Crecy facing the debut of artillery, which is a hallmark of modern warfare.

 

Disputed claims abound, of course, about when the first cannons were actually used in battle, but this observation rather fits our discussion and I couldn’t resist it !

 Phil

[phil andrade]

2 hours ago, PhilB said:

I wonder if a billhook would actually make a better cavalry weapon than a lance. It would have the same advantages that it had for foot soldiers. (It can be swung as well as poked).  I can understand the cavalry taking a dim view of carrying a farmhand`s weapon though!

Billhooks  ?  An ideal moment to bring Flodden back into the discussion.  A major factor in the English triumph there, or so I’ve read.

 

As far as Le Cateau is concerned, there is disagreement about who won. That certainly differentiates it from Crecy and Flodden.

 

One thing I’ll opine with confidence: the British were damned lucky to escape from that fight.  Smith Dorrien had form there : one of the literally two or three British soldiers to escape from Isandhlwana thirty five years earlier.

 

Phil

Edited 12 September by phil andrade

[Gunner Bailey]

22 minutes ago, phil andrade said:

Disputed claims abound, of course, about when the first cannons were actually used in battle, but this observation rather fits our discussion and I couldn’t resist it !

 Phil

Before WW2 a number of cannon balls (probably stone) were found on the Crecy battlefield and were on display in Abbeville. Sadly they were stolen, probably by the Germans when they were in occupation. 

When I had a house in France in was a few miles from Crecy and I walked the battlefield a few times from the windmill site through to the Jean de Luxembourg memorial. For once the English were not fighting uphill.

[phil andrade]

No major film has ever been made about Crecy ; nor about Flodden. At least, I don’t know of any about either, so please correct me if I’m wrong.

 

Agincourt ?  Yes, of course : Olivier and Branagh come to mind straight away, and quite recently I saw a depiction on screen which revealed Henry V as a kind of war criminal in the battle. The French would approve. Shakespeare had a lot to do with this, obviously.

As far as Le Cateau is concerned, I’m sure I’ve seen vignettes from a silent film that was made in the inter war years.  Hordes of Germans were overrunning forlorn British tommies who were dying to a man and saving the Entente.

 I can’t remember the name of the film, and whether it was confined to Le Cateau or dealt with the Great Retreat as a whole.

 

Phil

 

 

[Pat Atkins]

Maybe Walter Summers's 1926 Mons? I seem to remember that was all Teutonic hordes rushing about the place, stoic Tommies, and such.

(picture courtesy of BFI Player: https://player.bfi.org.uk/rentals/film/watch-mons-1926-online)

Edited 12 September by Pat Atkins

[PhilC]

2 hours ago, phil andrade said:

Billhooks  ?  An ideal moment to bring Flodden back into the discussion.  A major factor in the English triumph there, or so I’ve read.

 

As far as Le Cateau is concerned, there is disagreement about who won. That certainly differentiates it from Crecy and Flodden.

 

One thing I’ll opine with confidence: the British were damned lucky to escape from that fight.  Smith Dorrien had form there : one of the literally two or three British soldiers to escape from Isandhlwana thirty five years earlier.

 

Phil

 

While not a massive number it was rather more than three or four.

Looking at the figures given by Mike Snook in How Can Man Die Better, he gives 5 officers, including 'Orace, and 26 other ranks from the British regular units. There were another 13 officers and 32  white colonial volunteers in units such as the Natal Carbineers the Buffalo Border Guard and the Natal Native Contingents plus five civilians. One of these was listed as a Mr Boer so he might not have been a British subject.

Those who survived were, as you say, damned lucky, but even more importantly, all the white survivors were mounted. These included ten men of the 31 strong composite mounted infantry company, one of whom, Pte Samuel Wassall, won the VC for rescuing a comrade.
 

 

Rather more of the native troops got away. Around 230 of the Natal Native Mounted Contingent and 330 from the three battalions of the NNC plus an unknown number of civilian voorlopers, grooms and servants.

 

[phil andrade]

Thanks,PhilC, and others, this thread was started in a tentative and nervous way by me , with some worry that I might be wasting my - and , more importantly, your - time ; but I’ve found it rewarding, enjoyable and informative.

 

Phil

[Pat Atkins]

13 hours ago, phil andrade said:

Disputed claims abound, of course, about when the first cannons were actually used in battle, but this observation rather fits our discussion and I couldn’t resist it !

 Phil

Also finding this thread informative and enjoyable, many thanks for starting it and to to all who've contributed so far. If we might expand the "connections across the centuries" theme, I've seen Le Cateau described as the last battle of the Napoleonic War era, with all subsequent large scale battles belonging to the industrial age of military activity. A flight of fantasy, but while even I can spot the gigantic holes in this, I still quite like the conceit of linking Crecy to Rourke's Drift to Le Cateau, separated from the nascent sedentary and industrialised warfare of First Ypres and beyond. It won't hold up in court, but hey.

I suspect the Old Contemptibles in August 1914 really did belong to a different era than their counterparts of 1918, though; I've often wondered how men like my grandfather - who enlisted in 1906 and served for 21 years, seven in the infantry and the rest in the Signal Service/RCoS - felt returning to the Army after captivity, it must have felt alien in many ways. Whereas I suspect they'd have been quite at home with the men of the 24th Foot.