Authentic London Scots Badge ID

[CoRifleman]

In searching for an authentic London Scots badge for a soldier display, I'm seeing a handful of styles.

I'm trying to find a WW1 era, correct for a Private, London Scots cap badge.

I found a thread on here where a couple things were mentioned... one, an older badge was found in the earth and dug up - so I tried to find badges that somewhat were similar in detail to the dug item, as I was sure (I suppose) that it was a quite old example.  I also found mention where a poster said WW1 era would be pin clasp style, not two lugs, loops or eyes.  I haven't been able to corroborate that anywhere else.

As an example, here are a handful that I'm looking at... how on the lords green earth would I go about ensuring any one is correct for the timeframe that I'm looking for?  Would anyone be able to offer advice or pointers here?

 

WW1 14th Battalion, The London Scottish Regiment Cap Badge - PIN MECHANISM | eBay

Pin clasp and good detail - although I have contacted the seller to inquire if that is a scratch or break through the middle of the lions tail.

 

WW1 London Scottish Regiment Cap Badge WM 2 Lugs Original/Genuine | eBay

This one looks rather crude around the tail, as well as having lugs at the top and bottom.  For a belt instead?  Badge looks like a matte silver tone.

 

WW1 London Scottish Cap Badge White Metal 2 Lugs Antique Org | eBay

Obviously a darker color, but good detail to badge.  Two lug design, horizontal.  Discoloration front and back.

 

LONDON SCOTTISH REGIMENT CAP BADGE IN WHITE METAL PIN FITTING GENUINE WW1 | eBay

Lighter color - almost silverish?  But detail work on the badge looks "soft" and there looks to be an area on the mane that is pitted.  Clasp pin design.

 

London Scottish cap badge | eBay

Various discoloration, this one listed as a nickel badge.  Thistles are very prominent on this one, and deep detail on lion.  Horizontal lug design.

 

Original 14th Battalion, The London Scottish Regiment Cap Badge | eBay

Darker - but even - color again, horizontal twin lug.  A lot of texture to banners and lion body.

 

LONDON SCOTTISH REGIMENT CAP BADGE IN WHITE METAL ON LUGS GENUINE | eBay

This one looks quite bright, almost brass/goldish.  Some softness to the detail.  Twin horizontal lugs.

[CorporalPunishment]

I suggest you try the British and Commonwealth Military Badge Forum, plenty of badge experts there to advise you.     Pete.

[CoRifleman]

I registered there a moment ago, thank you!

[FROGSMILE]

On 25/08/2023 at 23:48, CoRifleman said:

I registered there a moment ago, thank you!

You are in danger of overthinking it, although as you are unfamiliar I can imagine it makes you hesitant.  Below are a few points for you to consider when making your decision.

The badge’s were of a largely standard design with only minor manufacturing differences and remained in use on bonnet and sporran for both world wars and beyond.  Ergo a lot of badges were made by several different manufacturers.  The common method of fixture for badges made under contract is two copper loop’s secured by a ‘cotter pin’.

For a soldier display does it really matter when the badge was made exactly given the factors just above?

The badge with pin (that you linked to) is simply one that has been converted from two loops, it doesn’t always mean that it’s necessarily a special issue, or of any great age and significance.

Officers often had their badges, which were of the same basic design, made in hallmarked sterling silver, but it was a matter of personal choice.  Also senior sergeants might choose to purchase a superior quality badge at their own expense, again as a personal choice, it was not mandatory.

The London Scottish were a unit of the Territorial Force (equivalent of the US National Guard) and comprised of auxiliary citizen soldiers.  As such their uniforms and insignia were usually provided by local county (civil) associations and not the military.

However, when conscription was introduced by the British government via act of parliament in 1916, the War Office unified the army for administrative purposes and by 1917 insignia was procured and issued via manufacturers contract and the standard army supply chain.  There was no difference in the basic nickel silver badges provided for ranks below officer from what had previously been issued before 1916.

NB.  Be aware that there are reproductions and restrikes of the badge (both, made specifically for collectors) but genuine auxiliary soldiers have worn these too post war so it’s easy to get yourself tied in knots arguing about what’s genuine.  You will learn this communicating with collectors so beware, one man’s meat is another man’s poison.  It can all get a bit academic given what you require the badge for.  Personally I’d advise you to choose the badge you like and just buy it, don’t worry about any minute and inconsequential manufacturing differences.

Edited 28 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[CoRifleman]

Frog I appreciate it.  Based on what I posted over at the British & Commonwealth Badge forum, 2 or 3 of my 6 listed were restrikes - and based on the listing as original - fakes.

Thank you for the pointers and information about the units and procurement.  I don't think I'll ever scratch the surface of the knowledge out there, but that doesn't mean I should be totally blind.

I know I'm way over my depth here, but if I'm going to spend $40-$60 on a badge, I'd rather it be genuine (or spend $70 on a genuine) vs saving a few bucks and having a fake.  Maybe my wording could have been more precise - I'm looking to avoid restrikes sold as original.  I'm searching for era correct and original.  Finding and researching is part of the fun for me - even when it means overload.  Thank you again.

[FROGSMILE]

45 minutes ago, CoRifleman said:

Frog I appreciate it.  Based on what I posted over at the British & Commonwealth Badge forum, 2 or 3 of my 6 listed were restrikes - and based on the listing as original - fakes.

Thank you for the pointers and information about the units and procurement.  I don't think I'll ever scratch the surface of the knowledge out there, but that doesn't mean I should be totally blind.

I know I'm way over my depth here, but if I'm going to spend $40-$60 on a badge, I'd rather it be genuine (or spend $70 on a genuine) vs saving a few bucks and having a fake.  Maybe my wording could have been more precise - I'm looking to avoid restrikes sold as original.  I'm searching for era correct and original.  Finding and researching is part of the fun for me - even when it means overload.  Thank you again.

I understand better now your rationale and wouldn’t wish to spoil your fun, but I must warn you that it’s an imprecise art and you will find it close to impossible to find a badge guaranteed 100% to be genuine.  A perfectly manufactured and good quality badge with the requisite signs of polishing to show military usage could as easily be from WW2, as from WW1, and if a genuine WW2 badge is then put on a WW1 uniform, does that count as ‘genuine’ tableau?  It would waste an awful lot of money to pay a premium for a badge, when there’s no way short of scientific testing to ascertain its true age.  I wish you good luck with your project, but recommend that you perhaps keep those factors in mind.

Edited 26 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[KizmeRD]

Not sure it helps you any, but here is the badge worn by my wife’s Grandfather who was pre-war member of London Scottish and it would have been what he wore as a Private during 1914/15 with BEF. (Before he was commissioned into Gordon Highlanders). It’s a pin type.

We also have a slightly different design (lacking the St. Andrew’s cross) which I assume was on his sporran.

MB

[CoRifleman]

52 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I understand better now your rationale and wouldn’t wish to spoil your fun, but I must warn you that it’s an imprecise art and you will find it close to impossible to find a badge guaranteed 100% to be genuine.  A perfectly manufactured and good quality badge with the requisite signs of polishing to show military usage could as easily be from WW2, as from WW1, and if a genuine WW2 badge is then put on a WW1 uniform, does that count as ‘genuine’ tableau?  It would waste an awful lot of money to pay a premium for a badge, when there’s no way short of scientific testing to ascertain its true age.  I wish you good luck with your project, but recommend that you perhaps keep those factors in mind.

Thank you - yes I have to continually hone what I'm looking for - and for now, lets go with "not a reproduction made seventy five years later fake aged and listed as ww1"  :-)

 

7 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Not sure it helps you any, but here is the badge worn by my wife’s Grandfather who was pre-war member of London Scottish and it would have been what he wore as a Private during 1914/15 with BEF. (Before he was commissioned into Gordon Highlanders). It’s a pin type.

We also have a slightly different design (lacking the St. Andrew’s cross) which I assume was on his sporran.

MB

Outstanding detail on the thistles there.  Thank you so much for sharing.  Coincidentally this is for a display for a Private in the LS that was commissioned into the Gordon Highlanders as well.  Thank you again!

[max7474]

My personal view is that the pin badges were the 1908-16 ones bought and worn by the Regiment.  I suspect that once the Army Clothing department took over issue of them they were made with lugs.  The sealed pattern would have been the same for the late war ones, WW2 ones and even 1960s ones before they were replaced by a/a ones.  My point is either go for a pin one or accept that any genuine one will be just the same whether it be made in 1918, 28,38, 48 or 1958!

[CoRifleman]

14 minutes ago, max7474 said:

My personal view is that the pin badges were the 1908-16 ones bought and worn by the Regiment.  I suspect that once the Army Clothing department took over issue of them they were made with lugs.  The sealed pattern would have been the same for the late war ones, WW2 ones and even 1960s ones before they were replaced by a/a ones.  My point is either go for a pin one or accept that any genuine one will be just the same whether it be made in 1918, 28,38, 48 or 1958!

Thank you - I did land on the pinned versions as being 'most correct.'  Could you clarify what the "sealed pattern" means, and "a/a"?

[KizmeRD]

33 minutes ago, CoRifleman said:

Coincidentally this is for a display for a Private in the LS that was commissioned into the Gordon Highlanders as well.  Thank you again!

I also have a truly splendid solid silver Gordon Highlanders (officers) stag head badge.

MB

[max7474]

Sorry.  The sealed pattern would be the pattern cards sent to the factory owners with an example of the badge that the ACD wanted made and details on type of metal to be used and fixings.  The Scottish badges were mostly made with brass lugs and a split pin as fixings.

 

A/A is anodised aluminium.

I should add that WW1 Tyneside Scottish cap badges from 1915 were made with a pin and eye but these were bought by the regimental association and were not issued by the Army.  In WW2 the Army re-raised the regiment and the badges had lugs as they were issued.

[CoRifleman]

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

I also have a truly splendid solid silver Gordon Highlanders (officers) stag head badge.

MB

Oh my share please when you're able.

1 hour ago, max7474 said:

Sorry.  The sealed pattern would be the pattern cards sent to the factory owners with an example of the badge that the ACD wanted made and details on type of metal to be used and fixings.  The Scottish badges were mostly made with brass lugs and a split pin as fixings.

 

A/A is anodised aluminium.

I should add that WW1 Tyneside Scottish cap badges from 1915 were made with a pin and eye but these were bought by the regimental association and were not issued by the Army.  In WW2 the Army re-raised the regiment and the badges had lugs as they were issued.

Excellent, thank you.

[max7474]

The a/a badges were sealed in 1963 but you can probably assume the metal ones were issued for some years after until the ones in stock ran out.

 

Edited 26 August , 2023 by max7474

[FROGSMILE]

Without wishing to make this seem any more like the British and Commonwealth Badge Forum, the loops were most commonly copper rather than ‘brass’.  Brass is a softer and very yellow metal, as used for e.g. old candlesticks, and created via a high concentration of zinc with copper.  Copper was mixed with less zinc to create the ‘gilding metal’ (gm) alloy that most cap badges, other than those of white metal (usually nickel), were made from.  The gm alloy was chosen because it was less soft than pure brass, but more importantly also dulled quickly when left unpolished.  This was a deliberate selection.  Copper was used for the loops because it was more hard wearing.  Conversely the cotter pins were made of brass. 

Edited 26 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[CoRifleman]

On 26/08/2023 at 12:37, FROGSMILE said:

Without wishing to make this seem any more like the British and Commonwealth Badge Forum, the loops were most commonly copper rather than ‘brass’.  Brass is a softer and very yellow metal, as used for e.g. old candlesticks, and created via a high concentration of zinc with copper.  Copper was mixed with less zinc to create the ‘gilding metal’ (gm) alloy that most cap badges, other than those of white metal (usually nickel), were made from.  The gm alloy was chosen because it was less soft than pure brass, but more importantly also dulled quickly when left unpolished.  This was a deliberate selection.  Copper was used for the loops because it was more hard wearing.  Conversely the cotter pins were made of brass. 

Ha, Frogsmile I understand the hesitancy, it's a whole other world.

Thank you for the clarification and knowledge shared.