Gueudecourt - burial or death location?

[fumblina]

I have a field service report for #27945 Pte. James Forcer 2/DLI

It gives a burial on 16-10-1916, the day after he died with a place of  "Ref.Map.FRANCE.Sheet 57c. N.21.d.6.3

From what I can see this is just NE of Gueudecourt which is roughly where they were fighting.

There is a memorial in roughly the area of N21 today but it is the Newfoundland Memorial, and I can't see that there is a graveyard there too.

James' record say that his name is on the Thiepval Memorial nearby, but of course that doesn't mean he was buried there.

Can anyone confirm that the location would be where he was buried, rather than where he died,  and clarify what the d.6.3 part would be? Thank you!

You see all the ranks of white headstones in the photos cemeteries.  Were they burying some of their dead just where they were on or close to the battlefield?  Were they mass graves? And if so, given that these areas were fought over repeatedly were they not worried about the graves being disturbed by shelling or tanks etc? 

Also if anyone knows anything about the attack he died in that would be appreciated.  It was a failed attack from Needle Trench on 15th October 1916.  The diary just states "15th 5.15am - Battalion took part in an attack on Enemy's line and afterwards returned to Needle Trench "

Many thanks.

Here is is profile: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Forcer-19

[fumblina]

Ugh!  I've just noticed I have note saying his body was not recovered, which I have assumed as the Thiepval Memorial is for the Missing of the Somme.

And if that is true would that mean he would have been reported in the category of missing presumed dead, or if reported as buried so soon after it happening would someone had reported seeing him die but his body was not recovered? <sorry morbid I know!>

Edited 25 August , 2023 by fumblina

[WhiteStarLine]

10 hours ago, fumblina said:

57c. N.21.d.6.3

Here is a 7-10-1916 map that shows the closest point to Needle Trench (a very long trench) from the initial burial place for Private Forcer.  Many burials were made under hasty conditions and the ground later disturbed by artillery, so that no trace was ever found.  To answer your question, d.6.3 means take sub square d in square 21.  Move six tenths east (60% of 500 yards) and three tenths north (30% of 500 yards).  Many trench maps have small gradations each showing one tenth of a sub square.

Almost 2 years later my grandfather photographed a field burial for someone in his section.  They erected a cross and placed artillery shell cases around it.  It had an accurate map reference and the exact distance from the town of Bray, in yards.  Post war, no trace was ever found of the grave and the soldier is still listed as 'burial unknown'.

[WhiteStarLine]

11 hours ago, fumblina said:

Were they burying some of their dead just where they were on or close to the battlefield? 

Sorry, overlooked this part.  Post-war, the Graves Registration Unit exhumed a number of battlefield casualties from small cemeteries / burial plots and concentrated them into larger ones.  There were 2 close by locations where they exhumed casualties from, within 100 yards.  Noting that the d.6.3 reference you supplied is within a 50 x 50 yard square, as is the location of each original burial site, then it is a reasonable inference that he was one of the casualties buried here and his remains could have been disturbed, or could have been missed or removed as unknown.

The pointed end of a trench conversion always looks stunningly accurate in a modern field, but trust me that even if the original reference was accurate and the conversion had no errors, it is still a locus of points within 2,500 square yards.  Click to enlarge image.

 

[Chesterboy]

13 hours ago, fumblina said:

I have a field service report for #27945 Pte. James Forcer 2/DLI

It gives a burial on 16-10-1916, the day after he died with a place of  "Ref.Map.FRANCE.Sheet 57c. N.21.d.6.3

From what I can see this is just NE of Gueudecourt which is roughly where they were fighting.

There is a memorial in roughly the area of N21 today but it is the Newfoundland Memorial, and I can't see that there is a graveyard there too.

James' record say that his name is on the Thiepval Memorial nearby, but of course that doesn't mean he was buried there.

Can anyone confirm that the location would be where he was buried, rather than where he died,  and clarify what the d.6.3 part would be? Thank you!

You see all the ranks of white headstones in the photos cemeteries.  Were they burying some of their dead just where they were on or close to the battlefield?  Were they mass graves? And if so, given that these areas were fought over repeatedly were they not worried about the graves being disturbed by shelling or tanks etc? 

Also if anyone knows anything about the attack he died in that would be appreciated.  It was a failed attack from Needle Trench on 15th October 1916.  The diary just states "15th 5.15am - Battalion took part in an attack on Enemy's line and afterwards returned to Needle Trench "

Many thanks.

Here is is profile: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Forcer-19

Where did this information come from as it does appear in the wikitree link

please post a copy here 

must of these who died on the same date and same battalion and regiment are buried in bancourt cemetery 

[fumblina]

36 minutes ago, Chesterboy said:

Where did this information come from as it does appear in the wikitree link

please post a copy here 

must of these who died on the same date and same battalion and regiment are buried in bancourt cemetery 

 

It's on the B2090A Field Service report https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1219/images/gbrmil1914r4pt2_139108-00565?pId=691545

 

Is there any easy way to get a list of who died in that regiment by day?  I had been hoping to append the names to the war diary entries I have transcribed, esp for the OR who are unnamed.  The one record set I have found on Ancestry that allows to search by date doesn't filter accurately by battalion and vice versa for another data set.  The diaries are just a rabbit hole for me, so I don't want to get sucked into wading through or transcribing loads of data for other regiments etc  Thanks!

Edited 26 August , 2023 by fumblina

[PRC]

56 minutes ago, fumblina said:

Is there any easy way to get a list of who died in that regiment by day? 

I was going to suggest Geoff's Search Engine - much easier to search for a Regiments' fatalities by Battalion and day than using the CWGC equivalent.  I'm sure I've used it in the last couple of days, but this morning it's coming up as "Account suspended". Hopefully it's an end of month thing or a hosting issue, as it would be a big loss if it has gone altogether.

Geoff indexed the CWGC database as it stood back in 2011/12, so it won't catch any subsequent additions. It does link through though to the relevant CWGC webpage for each man.

Cheers,
Peter

[fumblina]

3 hours ago, WhiteStarLine said:

 Post-war, the Graves Registration Unit exhumed a number of battlefield casualties from small cemeteries / burial plots and concentrated them into larger ones.  There were 2 close by locations where they exhumed casualties from, within 100 yards.  Noting that the d.6.3 reference you supplied is within a 50 x 50 yard square, as is the location of each original burial site, then it is a reasonable inference that he was one of the casualties buried here and his remains could have been disturbed, or could have been missed or removed as unknown. 

Thanks WhiteStarLine.

So if I am understanding you correctly...  He would not have been left of the battlefield (missing or otherwise) but recovered and buried in that location at one of those two cemeteries.  Then at a later date, post-war, the bodies in the cemetery were moved to be consolidated at one of the larger cemeteries (maybe Bancourt?) but his remains were not found so his name was put on the Theipval Memorial instead.

[fumblina]

7 minutes ago, PRC said:

I was going to suggest Geoff's Search Engine - much easier to search for a Regiments' fatalities by Battalion and day than using the CWGC equivalent.  I'm sure I've used it in the last couple of days, but this morning it's coming up as "Account suspended". Hopefully it's an end of month thing or a hosting issue, as it would be a big loss if it has gone altogether.

Geoff indexed the CWGC database as it stood back in 2011/12, so it won't catch any subsequent additions. It does link through though to the relevant CWGC webpage for each man.

Cheers,
Peter

Ah the CWGC site is great thanks, I was searching the same records on Ancestry and it was much harder to use.  This allows me to search for Bn, sort by date of death and export so that is brilliant.  162 deaths in a 5 month period, quite shocking really, esp. since that was only a couple of days of actual battles.   

Amazing there is so much more history to write about someone even after their death! 

[egbert]

This is my German trench map as orf 16.10.16

[egbert]

21.10.16

 

[egbert]

aerial 30.9.16

 

[Fattyowls]

This is the ground as it was 11 years ago now. This is taken from the Newfoundland Memorial looking back to Guedecourt; unfortunately I didn't take one looking over to the left which would have shown the sites marked on WSL's excellent map.

Hope this helps.

Pete.

 

[WhiteStarLine]

20 hours ago, fumblina said:

So if I am understanding you correctly

That is my speculation - initially buried together with others and body not found / not noticed when others were exhumed and removed to a concentration cemetery.  As other posters have said, the best way to test the theory is to use the CWGC search engine to find others of the same unit killed on the same day.  Then check each of their burial records in the hope that one of their bodies was subsequently exhumed and reburied.  If all or some of them came from the same original burial, then you know what happened.

The other thing we need to do is locate exactly where he was in relation to the front line.  The unit war diary says 'returned to Needle Trench' but you also say that they attacked from Needle Trench.  Where did this come from?

Looking at the October 1916 front line it moved 5 times in this vicinity.  They were already well forward of Gueudecourt by 5th October.  So plotting where he was buried shows that he was presumably killed in the fighting on or just forward of the front line (in Mild Trench or fighting for Cloudy Trench) and hastily buried just behind Mild Trench.  The attached image is georeferenced from the Official History with his burial marked.

You are interested in the front line as it was on October 14th - 19th denoted by ++++.  Click map to enlarge.  I've also put it very roughly on the extreme left of Pete's map.

Official History 1916 Volume 2 Map 04. Edition: 1937

 

[WhiteStarLine]

17 hours ago, egbert said:

aerial 30.9.16

[fumblina]

5 hours ago, WhiteStarLine said:

The other thing we need to do is locate exactly where he was in relation to the front line.  The unit war diary says 'returned to Needle Trench' but you also say that they attacked from Needle Trench.  Where did this come from?

Sorry, that looks like an error on my part.  They were in Needle on 11th and 12th and moved to Rainbow on 13th-14th and likely moved forward from Rainbow on 15th. I can see Rainbow on your maps above as being much nearer front line than Needle.

• 10th - Bn continued in reserve near TRONES WOOD.
• 10th 4pm - The enemy shelled the camp - Casualties - 2nd Lieut H.N. Heyward killed and 16 OR Wounded. 2nd Lieut S Dalziel, who was conducting a draft from ETAPLES to 14th DLI & was visiting Bn, was also wounded.
• 11th - Bn returned to trenches (NEEDLE TRENCH) near GUEDECOURT. (In Reserve). Reinforcements 26 OR arrived from ETAPLES.
• 12th - Bn continued to hold NEEDLE TRENCH - Casualties 3 OR wounded.
• 13th - Bn moved further forward to RAINBOW TRENCH. Capt. C. Evans Smith rejoined from Hospital. Reinforcements 11 OR arrived from Base - Casualties OR 1 Killed & 3 Wounded.
• 14th - Bn continued to hold RAINBOW TRENCH - Casualties: - Capt. B. Wallace R.A.M.C. Wounded, 2nd Lieut A.L. Butcher Wounded, 2nd Lieut J.S. Palmer Wounded.
• 15th 5.15am - Bn took part in attack on Enemy's line and afterwards returned to NEEDLE TRENCH. Major E.V. Mauger arrived and took over duties of 2nd in Command. Capt. C. Evans Smith admitted to hospital.

[fumblina]

6 hours ago, WhiteStarLine said:

You are interested in the front line as it was on October 14th - 19th denoted by ++++.

The crosses have brigade numbers next to them.  How accurate are they? 2/DLI was part of 18th Brigade 6th Div. 

On wikipedia (yes, I know!) for Battle of Transloy Ridge for that day's action is:

"In the 12th Brigade, the 1st King's Own tried to bomb down Spectrum Trench to Dewdrop Trench in the evenings of 14 and 15 October and in a pre-dawn attack on 15 October, the 2nd Sherwood Foresters in the 6th Division took the gun-pits in front of the British-held section of Cloudy Trench and took several prisoners. On the left of the division the 11th Essex overran Mild Trench and bombed up the Beaulencourt road before being forced back by a counter-attack. "

Both 2/SF and 11/Essex were part of 18th brigade.  I'm assuming it is likely 2/DLI took part in one or both of these events?

Are the green lines trenches and red lines roads? 

2nd Sherwood give a much more detailed account of their activity on 15th.  This was written dated 14th about the planning for next day's attack:

"our objectives being the Old German Gunpits & a part of a new enemy trench North of them. D Company were ordered to carry out the assault on the gunpits with 2 platoons in the first wave, & company bombers & 3 Lewis Guns in the 2nd wave.  For the assault on the new enemy trench, 1 platoon of D Coy & the Battn Bombing squad to form part of the 1st wave."

It goes on to give a fairly thorough account of the events but only mentions 11/Leicesters and Royal Engineers as reinforcements.  I can't find a similar diary for 11/Essex.

Perhaps the 2/DLI guys were part of the Bombing squad?  But in that case separate notes the DLI diary saying they attacked seems odd. Forcer does have on his service record that he was trained as a bomber, but I guess that training might have been common enough not to be remarkable?

Sorry, I just seem to keep asking more questions each time!

[egbert]

More maps and infos on my thread about Greatuncle Kurt Thielicke, kia 1.10.16 in /near Bayonet trench

 

 

[egbert]

panorama from Gueudecourt towards your place of interest

Eiserner Riegel looking NW

[egbert]

view along Eiserner Riegel from Gueudecourt towards South. Center-right in distance is Luisenhof ferme

 

[egbert]

snippet from a larger Sonderkarte as of 21.11.16. You can see the actual frontline trenches of friend (German) and foe (Brit)  

 

[fumblina]

On 26/08/2023 at 08:41, Chesterboy said:

most of these who died on the same date and same battalion and regiment are buried in bancourt cemetery 

Of the soldiers who died on the same day, many are Thiepval / Missing but the others are mostly in Bancourt as Chesterboy said.  From the list below the three in bold are possible. Two are shown on WhiteStarLine's map - although whether the Beaulencourt Road is just one of the three or 3 on close proximity.  If Cloudy Trench was being taken that day that is possible, but I think it is out of the target area in N21

The CWGC page for Bancourt says this:

The remainder of the cemetery was made after the Armistice when graves were brought in from the battlefields east and south of Bancourt and from certain Allied and German cemeteries, including:-

• BAPAUME RESERVOIR GERMAN CEMETERY, on the Bapaume Beaulencourt road, containing the graves of twelve soldiers from the United Kingdom buried by a German Field Ambulance in March and April, 1918, and of seven others and three from New Zealand who fell at the end of August, 1918.
• BAPAUME ROAD CEMETERY, BEAULENCOURT, 500 metres South of the Beaulencourt-Gueudecourt road, containing the graves of 20 soldiers from the United Kingdom who fell in October, 1916.
• BEAULENCOURT ROAD CEMETERIES, three in number, on the North-East side of Gueudecourt, containing the graves of 88 soldiers from the United Kingdom who fell in the autumn of 1916 or in April, 1917.
• CLOUDY TRENCH CEMETERY, GUEUDECOURT, containing the graves of 40 soldiers from the United Kingdom who fell in October or November, 1916.

The five cemeteries last named were made by the 5th Australian Division in April, 1917.

• FREMICOURT COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION. This Extension was begun by the Germans, who buried in it 1,346 of their own soldiers and 136 officers and men from the United Kingdom who fell in March, 1918. It was taken over in September, 1918, by British and Dominion units, who used it for clearing the battlefields and for fresh burials, and added 94 graves. All the graves have now been removed to other cemeteries.
• SUNKEN ROAD CEMETERY, LESBOEUFS, between Gueudecourt and Le Transloy, made by the 5th Australian Division in April, 1917. It contained the graves of 49 soldiers from the United Kingdom and one from Australia who fell in October, 1916.

The great majority of these graves dated from the winter of 1916-1917, the retreat of March 1918, or the advance of August-September 1918.

Bancourt British Cemetery now contains 2,480 burials and commemorations of the First World War. 1,462 of the burials are unidentified but there are special memorials to 43 casualties known or believed to be buried among them, and to one soldier buried in Bapaume Reservoir German Cemetery, whose grave could not be found on concentration.

[jay dubaya]

Bancourt BC contains the remains of UBS DLI exhumed from 57C.N21.d.6.8 (50 x 50 yard square)  and 57C.N.d.2.5 another from 57C.N.21.d.26. (a likely transcription error of 2.6), there are also 5 UBS buried here, exhumed from 57C.N.21.d.6.3. None of these graves were marked by crosses or similar markers but they may have been originally registered graves. The burial, as recorded in Forcers' service papers, would suggest it was visually marked and bore some detail of the man buried beneath as other DLI casualties show for the same date of death within Bancourt BC. I suspect Forcers' grave to have been registered, but, upon concentration the grave could not be found suggesting the grave had been lost due to the continued hostilities over this ground.

If Forcers' remains were recovered post Armistice and prior to the British Army handing over control of the cemeteries to the IWGC he is likely to be found in Bancourt BC as an UBS. If his remains were recovered under the control of the IWGC/CWGC during the 1920s to today, then his remains may found in one of several cemeteries that have remained open to burials over the years. An example of this can be found with Pte Miller interred at Bienvillers MC during October 1923, although exhumed from 57C.N.27.c (an adjacent square to N.21.d) there were remains also recovered from N.21.d during this period. It's clear the area was searched methodically at least twice but of course the remains of Pte Forcer may still lay where he was initially buried in his battlefield grave, although the potential for him being buried as an UBS at Bancourt BC is greater.

The Concentration of Graves - Burial Reports (CoG-BR) for Bancourt BC show 120+ sets of remains recovered from 57C.N.d (500 x 500 yard square). Potentially 75 of these graves were registered at the Armistice, these include 3 DLI named graves exhumed from 57C/N.21.d.6.6. Whilst I cannot see a Memorial Plot in the CoG-BR which may have shown a named cross or similar marker was recovered without remains, Forcer does not have a Special Memorial 'believed to be buried here' which further suggests the loss of his grave during wartime.

[fumblina]

Thanks to everyone who has given information on this thread, you are all awesome.

I've completed James Forcer's WikiTree profile with your help. Jay dubaya I have included your last comment in the research section and linked to this post as it explained the situation beautifully, and gives info for people to look into records further should they wish.  I hope that is ok.  

I might go back and add some maps at a later date, but I've been working on this one profile since mid-August so it's time to move on.  I'm still digging (hmm bad choice of metaphor!) into the other 2/DLI soldiers who died with James on 15th Oct and hope to find burial locations in service records where available.  They are listed here https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:War_Diary_2/DLI_-_October_1916.

[Matlock1418]

On 25/08/2023 at 18:50, fumblina said:

Here is is profile: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Forcer-19

3 hours ago, fumblina said:

Thanks to everyone who has given information on this thread, you are all awesome.

I've completed James Forcer's WikiTree profile with your help.

Quite a write up.

However, I feel I must point out a small issue relating to pensions in the profile which can probably easily be rectificed ...

In June 1915, the widow's pension was 10s. a week, the first child under 16 received 5s and the second 3s. 6d. The service records show that Sarah was issued a widow's pension for herself and the children but the records are faded so that the amount and date of issue cannot be seen, but it can be assumed she was receiving 18s 6d per week once that was processed. This would have been a 12% drop in income.

= Whilst the amounts of pension quoted for 1915 are correct [for a widow under 35 yo] it is not right to use them for his widow and family in 1917 when the pension was paid out.

This is the main pension index card for James FORCER's family

Image thanks to WFA / Fold3  Western Front Association; London, England; WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers; Reference: 071/0329/Fol-For 

The 1917 Royal Warrant would apply.

We can see his widow, Sarah FORCER, Date of birth 3.8.82, actually received 22/11 pw from 21.5.17 = 13/9 for herself [i.e. <45 yo] plus 5/- and 4/2 for the children respectively [between death and pension payout then SA would have continued to have been paid out]

The Remarriage Gratuity referred to was a one-off bounty of one year's pension when she became Mrs HALL - Children's pension allowances would continue to be paid to her until the children reached 16 yo [typically - potentially to 21 yo under special educational or disability circumstances].

M

Edit: For info: Pte. Robert HALL, 30298, 2nd Garrison Batt Yorkshire Regt later made a disability pension claim, as 30298, Royal Defence Corps, for Fracture of Tarsal (both feet) and was awarded a pension from 2-12-17 through to 30/8/21 [latterly at the 20% rate of 8/- pw] when it was adjudged he had No grounds for further award, this was later confirmed by a Pension Appeals Tribunal [Source = Pension records at WFA/Fold3]

Edited 23 September , 2023 by Matlock1418
Edit