RGA Siege battery soldiers equipment - linesman/signallers wire cutters etc and great coat straps

[MrEd]

Hello all, a query if I may, in this list of equipment for howitzer siege batteries of the RGA it’s lists 3 things I am unsure of and hoping someone could enlighten me.

 

1. Frogs, Brown, Wire-Cutter MkII

What is ‘frogs, brown, wire cutter mkII’? I can find reference to every Mk except that one and have no idea what it looks like or what wire cutters they carried (only 20 issued per battery). Was this the type that slide on the bayonet and cut the wire by means of firing a bullet - and was the frog the one that was hung from the triangle of the bandolier?

 

2. Straps, Greatcoat

straps greatcoat - presumably this is the leather straps with a buckle for keeping the great coat rolled up rather than a pattern 03 great coat carrier - my question with this is how did the RGA soldiers carry their greatcoats? A pattern 03 carrier isn’t listed so did they carry their great coat just hanging off their belt or something? Presumably as no ammo pouches for the belt are listed there would be no actual way to mount a great coat carrier? Did they roll their greatcoat like a sausage and carry it round their neck? ‘En banderole’ style?

3. Covers, mess-tin dismounted services - presumably this (and the D shaped Tins) was either carried on the belt or in/on the haversack? Anyone know?

 

Apologies if these are simple questions, but I haven’t been able to answer them myself from searching or looking at (lots) of images! Hopefully some of you can share some details

Thanks

ed

Edited 6 October , 2023 by MrEd

[ianjonesncl]

2 hours ago, MrEd said:

1. Frogs, Brown, Wire-Cutter MkII

What is ‘frogs, brown, wire cutter mkII’? I can find reference to every Mk except that one and have no idea what it looks like or what wire cutters they carried (only 20 issued per battery). Was this the type that slide on the bayonet and cut the wire by means of firing a bullet - and was the frog the one that was hung from the triangle of the bandolier?

The wire cutters maybe for cutting for cutting signals wire. 

Wire cutters in a web frogs were still issued in modern times. They were like a pair of pliers. They were used by linesmen and also by gun detachments. 

Found on e-bay

Period 1915 British Army Wire Cutters

 

Edited 24 August , 2023 by ianjonesncl

[Dave66]

Leather wire cutter frogs are rare survivors, (by the description frogs, brown, I presume leather as opposed to webbing) I found a couple on WD militaria…not sure what mark though.

https://www.wdmilitaria.co.uk/shop.php?code=11757

https://www.wdmilitaria.co.uk/shop.php?code=28736

Dave.

Edit, they also did one in buff, converted from a bayonet frog….https://www.jdrmilitaria.co.uk/product/buff-leather-wire-cutter-belt-frog/

Edited 24 August , 2023 by Dave66

[TullochArd]

5 hours ago, MrEd said:

2. Straps, Greatcoat - presumably this is the leather straps with a buckle for keeping the great coat rolled up rather than a pattern 03 great coat carrier - my question with this is how did the RGA soldiers carry their greatcoats? A pattern 03 carrier isn’t listed so did they carry their great coat just hanging off their belt or something? Presumably as no ammo pouches for the belt are listed there would be no actual way to mount a great coat carrier? Did they roll their greatcoat like a sausage and carry it round their neck? ‘En banderole’ style?

3. Covers, mess-tin dismounted services - presumably this (and the D shaped Tins) was either carried on the belt or in/on the haversack? Anyone know?

 

P03 Covers Mess Tin is well described at  Mess Tins and 1903 pattern Cover: British Army | Imperial War Museums (iwm.org.uk) and the text connects to the other item you mention as "features a brass ring for attachment to the 1903 pattern coat carrier harness."

The 1903 Straps Greatcoat, mentioned on your list consisted of canvas straps in which a rolled greatcoat could be fitted. These then went over the shoulders and attached to the loops on the back of the belt mounted pouches as shown below. The mess tin cover with leather belt loops on the back allowed it to be worn on the belt in the small of the back. 

The P08 Braces and buckle mentioned relate to the OS Haversack so are irrelevant.  "En banderole’ style?" seems unlikely even for the RA but without the Pocket, Cartridge D Ring attachment seems a total mystery as all the known versions rely on this feature.  

Is there anything on the subsequent page? 

 

Edited 25 August , 2023 by TullochArd

[4thGordons]

I have several near complete sets of 03 equipment (one with a web belt one with leather and with different patterns of ammunition pouches). I have never seen a genuine greatcoat carrier in the wild....

Chris 

PS I am glad to see it lists Haversack OS rather than Haversack GS as I have the former but not the latter and those I have seen have been beyond my purse!

Edited 24 August , 2023 by 4thGordons
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[Andrew Upton]

1 hour ago, TullochArd said:

...The 1903 Straps Greatcoat, mentioned on your list consisted of canvas straps in which a rolled greatcoat could be fitted. These then went over the shoulders and attached to the loops on the back of the belt mounted pouches as shown below...

The "Strap, greatcoat" isn't the same thing as the "Carrier, great coat" which you're describing, although they were used with it. Basically you used a pair of the former to keep the coat rolled up, and then the latter as described to attach it to the actual equipment set:

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1903/components/1903_belts_straps.html

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1903/components/1903_equipment_carriers.html

[Andrew Upton]

1 hour ago, 4thGordons said:

... I have never seen a genuine greatcoat carrier in the wild....

About 20 years ago Chris at the Birmingham Militaria Fair held at the Motorcycle Museum I had the misfortune to be unable to purchase a mint 1915 dated example. I had precisely £70 left to spend, and the dealer wouldn't budge on the asking price of £75... 

[TullochArd]

6 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

The "Strap, greatcoat" isn't the same thing as the "Carrier, great coat" which you're describing, although they were used with it. Basically you used a pair of the former to keep the coat rolled up, and then the latter as described to attach it to the actual equipment set:

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1903/components/1903_belts_straps.html

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1903/components/1903_equipment_carriers.html

 

I stand corrected and hats off to yourself and the good old karkeeweb.   Makes sense now.

Edited 25 August , 2023 by TullochArd

[Andrew Upton]

6 hours ago, MrEd said:

... 2. Straps, Greatcoat

straps greatcoat - presumably this is the leather straps with a buckle for keeping the great coat rolled up rather than a pattern 03 great coat carrier - my question with this is how did the RGA soldiers carry their greatcoats? A pattern 03 carrier isn’t listed so did they carry their great coat just hanging off their belt or something? Presumably as no ammo pouches for the belt are listed there would be no actual way to mount a great coat carrier? Did they roll their greatcoat like a sausage and carry it round their neck? ‘En banderole’ style?...

I believe the general idea was to carry it rolled up as you describe, with the straps used to secure the ends together, eg:

[4thGordons]

Great pic! -- with Martini-Enfield carbines too!

Chris

[MrEd]

Brilliant picture andrew thank you!

 

okay that’s the greatcoat question answered. Makes total sense.

The wire cutters I had mistakenly thought for cutting barbed wire and hadnt even considered signal wire - I was wondering in what situation a gunner would have to be cutting barbed wire, but signal wire is much more likely. I can picture what they look like now, so thanks for the links!

mess tins I am not sure about in terms of carrying, I presume on the belt just in the small of the back on the belt loop on the back?

 

@4thGordons yes haversack ‘other services’ with a p08 brace with 2 x 2inch buckles as a shoulder strap  

 

[MrEd]

Thank you everyone by the way, I appreciate the responses

8 hours ago, Dave66 said:

Leather wire cutter frogs are rare survivors, (by the description frogs, brown, I presume leather as opposed to webbing) I found a couple on WD militaria…not sure what mark though.

https://www.wdmilitaria.co.uk/shop.php?code=11757

https://www.wdmilitaria.co.uk/shop.php?code=28736

Dave.

Edit, they also did one in buff, converted from a bayonet frog….https://www.jdrmilitaria.co.uk/product/buff-leather-wire-cutter-belt-frog/

What is the little D shaped loop on the back for? 

[Dave66]

33 minutes ago, MrEd said:

Thank you everyone by the way, I appreciate the responses

What is the little D shaped loop on the back for? 

Good question, not quite sure to be honest, looks too heavy duty for a leg strap….hopefully someone will have the answer.

Dave.

Edited 25 August , 2023 by Dave66

[ianjonesncl]

1 hour ago, MrEd said:

What is the little D shaped loop on the back for? 

Tie the lanyard from the wire cutter to the scabbard ?

[GWF1967]

3 hours ago, MrEd said:

 

What is the little D shaped loop on the back for? 

Here’s my example, with 1914 dated Smith’s wire cutters. It appears that it never had a D shaped loop. 

[MrEd]

No it doesn’t, perhaps it is for the lanyard, I can’t think what it would attach to - unless it hung off the triangle buckle of the bandolier and that D loop was for the small leather strap that goes from bandolier to belt - but I don’t think it would be that tbh.

maybe, if it was used by signallers for signal cable that loop was for connecting to another piece of equipment, but then @GWF1967’s nice example doesn’t have it so I have no idea.

thank you everyone

 

although I have thought of another question - anyone got a photo of an RGA soldier carrying their Brodie about their person? They didn’t have an 08 large pack and straps to strap it onto so how did they carry it when not wearing it? 

Edited 25 August , 2023 by MrEd

[Andrew Upton]

5 hours ago, MrEd said:

What is the little D shaped loop on the back for? 

3 hours ago, ianjonesncl said:

Tie the lanyard from the wire cutter to the scabbard ?

 

They are normally seen with the lanyard attached to the loop, though whether that is a case of what they were designed to do or just found practical for might be different things...

 

1 hour ago, MrEd said:

although I have thought of another question - anyone got a photo of an RGA soldier carrying their Brodie about their person? They didn’t have an 08 large pack and straps to strap it onto so how did they carry it when not wearing it? 

Not an RGA soldier, but typically on the shoulder was commonly done - eg:

[MrEd]

Thanks @Andrew Upton that answers my question, so no official carrier or anything and just a soldiers idea on how to carry it then

[Fromelles]

Here is the LoC entry for the Mk II frog.

 

I apologise for these shocking pics, but they're the only ones I have at hand at the moment, I've just moved houses and everything is chaotic. The Greatcoat strap is easily identified by having a number of holes (5-6) punched in the centre of the strap then more punched further towards the end. The idea being when the Greatcoat was worn, bandolier fashion, the strap was wound around the ends of the coat then tightened and buckled using the central holes then wound around again and buckled using the end holes. So the strap was passed through the buckle twice. I hope that all makes sense.

Dan

Edited 27 August , 2023 by Fromelles

[MrEd]

Thanks @Fromelles that does make sense, I’ll E part of the great coat strap will secure one end of the great coat ‘en banderole’ and then the ‘second time through the buckle’ secures the other and simultaneously both ends together to make the banderole.thank you

 

will keep my eye out for a pair, and a greatcoat  

[Fromelles]

On 25/08/2023 at 08:39, 4thGordons said:

I have never seen a genuine greatcoat carrier in the wild....

 

Back in the mid 80s these carriers (London makers) would always turn up in perfect condition at every Adelaide gun show in South Australia, however no one was ever interested in them, I assume because without the rest of the '03 equipment they are useless.

I eventually purchased one only because there was nothing else to buy, and picked up a second because of its cracking issue stamps.... now, like everything else, very rarely see them and when you do they're priced beyond the reach of mortal man.

Dan

[MrEd]

Make you wonder where they (and other similar items) went over the years. I am sure a lot of stuff was binned or otherwise destroyed because it had little to no value 

Edited 27 August , 2023 by MrEd

[TullochArd]

On 25/08/2023 at 07:29, MrEd said:

Brilliant picture andrew thank you!

okay that’s the greatcoat question answered. Makes total sense.

....... and here, courtesy of the University of YouTube, is a video demonstration of the long forgotten art of rolling a military Greatcoat in that particular fashion........

How to roll an overcoat (shinel) - YouTube

 

[MrEd]

Nice video, thanks

[MrEd]

On 25/08/2023 at 08:05, Dave66 said:

Good question, not quite sure to be honest, looks too heavy duty for a leg strap….hopefully someone will have the answer.

Dave.

Possibly found the answer in the 1916 field service manual for heavy artillery 

sounds like it attached to the saddle and the loop possibly stabilises it via attaching it to the saddle?