Help Please!

[Shayne]

Hello!

I am very desperately trying to identify a soldier from WW1.  I know he is no longer alive, but I'd like to know anything someone might be able to tell me about the picture attached.  We were told he was a German soldier and from the back of the picture know the date is Sept 17, 1919.

It would also be really helpful if anyone could read the name on the back of the picture.  We have made several guesses but none we can find in any data bank searches.

Thank you in advance for any help given!

[GreyC]

Hi,

I am not too sure that he is German. He is not wearing a uniform-jacket that resembles anything I´ve seen on German sodiers. But aybe it´s a mix of civilian and military clothing. 

I a not too sure about the name either.

To miss Hilda a little souvenir of happy hours spent in his company.

A (or T?) Bov(or r?)enan (or u)

GreyC

 

Edited 19 August , 2023 by GreyC

[PRC]

Hi @Shayne and welcome to the forum

From the letter shaping in the whole sample I'd say the surname is Boreman, but the first initial(s) could be pretty much anything - A, F, P. D, F.A,P.A and D.A. would be the prime contenders!

Pure speculation but as he is writing in English to Miss Hilda there is a possibility that he was a prisoner of war who made the acquaintance of the lady while on a work party, etc. However I've tried the International Committee of the Red Cross and there isn't a single Boreman \ Borman \ Boerman that I could readily find. That is down probably to the filing system used by the ICRC so that similar sounding surnames are gathered together. In this case there is a clump of German prisoners Boot, Boost and Bost where you'd expect to find Boreman, so it may be that the Boreman's are clumped together with another surname somewhere. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search/#/1/2/147/0/German/Military/Boreman

Hopefully a forum pal with more experience of looking for German prisoners will be along shortly.

The other possibility might be that Miss Hilda was working for the Occupying powers and this man was taken on as local support staff.

Sorry I can't be more helpful.

Peter

[GreyC]

2 minutes ago, PRC said:

Boreman

I don´t think so. Compare the "m" in Company with the letter in the signature. For me a "n".

GreyC

.

[PRC]

1 minute ago, GreyC said:

I don´t think so. Compare the "m" in Company with the letter in the signature. For me a "n".

Understand where you're coming from. My take on it was that "m" in Company was joined in this persons script to the top of the preceding "o", but our mystery letter is joined from the bottom by the preceding half-height letter which appears to be "e", (similar to the "e" in "spent" and "Sept"), but not in the same way as the "en" combination appears in "spent".

So as the following two letters in the surname appear to be the same as the "an" in "Company" that leaves a limited number of potentials half height lower case letters that would be constructed in that way - "nan" "wan" "ean" "van" and "man" are  the most likely combinations I can think of for those last three letters - would there be more in German?

And if you put an "e" in front then cuts the choice down a bit more.

But I'm overdue a sight test so may be seeing things that aren't there

Cheers,
Peter

 

[GreyC]

Compare the "n" in Mainz to the letter in the signature. It´s identical, as far as I can see.

Best,

GreyC

[MURAT]

Good evening,

the soldier in the photo is wearing a blue French uniform that seems to belong to a Engineer regiment, or artillery (dark collar )...

Gérald

[FROGSMILE]

13 hours ago, MURAT said:

Good evening,

the soldier in the photo is wearing a blue French uniform that seems to belong to a Engineer regiment, or artillery (dark collar )...

Gérald

Yes, I think it is a French tunic too.  Perhaps he was from Alsace Lorraine. 

Edited 20 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[AOK4]

Mainz was occupied by the French after the war... The man in the picture is wearing a French uniform.

Jan

[PRC]

Additional information and image now posted here

Cheers,
Peter

[aim]

Signed X or Xt Borenay? I've no idea if this is a french surname or not.

aim

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, aim said:

Signed X or Xt Borenay? I've no idea if this is a french surname or not.

I might suspect the X = Xavier [?] but I too can't say if it is a particularly french given name.

M

[mancpal]

I think Xavier is after the Saint of the same name and common in the Catholic world so it would tie in with the French uniform. 
Mainz had a sizeable POW camp during the war. I wondered if it was used post war for processing/interning German troops and maybe his role was that of a guard? Pure speculation.

Simon

[Shayne]

I welcome any & all speculation!  I assure you I am noting it all and following up.  Thank you!

Shayne

[PRC]

I'm just wondering if it's possible to work out anything more from the vehicle?

The long rods along the side, (chimney sweep \ drain unblockers equipment perhaps?), and how they are stored would suggest access to the cab would be difficult from that side, and that in turn would suggest the vehicle was left hand drive.

In addition there is possibly some lettering at the base of the open rear door. Could that be a number plate?

From the wikipedia article on the sectors of occupation it appears that Mainz was initially the headquarters of the French Tenth Army, with a separate French Eight Army in the Palatinate. In October 1919 the two were brought under one command based in Mainz. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Rhineland

No doubt such a post-war set-up was top brass heavy and I would speculate that a number of local country houses were requisitioned to provide them with accomodation. Could our man be a trusted German prisoner who was allowed out to provide \ supervise such standard maintenance requirements as chimney sweeping \ drain unblocking to those locations and was partially kitted out in a surplus French Army jacket?

Cheers,
Peter

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, PRC said:

I'm just wondering if it's possible to work out anything more from the vehicle?

The long rods along the side, (chimney sweep \ drain unblockers equipment perhaps?),

I wondered about that/those - and your suggestions were also my first thoughts = engineers perhaps ??

I offer as a speculative alternative for the rods = radio aeriel mast ???  If french, would they also be engineers? Or a different corps?

M

[GreyC]

5 minutes ago, PRC said:

would suggest the vehicle was left hand drive

Lots of cars during that time were habitually left hand drive. Not only in GB, but also on the continent.

GreyC

[Matlock1418]

6 minutes ago, GreyC said:

Lots of cars during that time were habitually left hand drive. Not only in GB, but also on the continent.

Surely ... majority:

GB = RHD

Continent = LHD

???

M

[PRC]

Just now, GreyC said:

Not only in GB

Would be interested to know which commercial makes of vehicles in the UK were left hand drive?

They may have been made for export but I would suspect most of the vehicles used by the French and German armies were manufactured by their own countries suppliers.

Cheers,
Peter

[AOK4]

Hello,

I don't know why people continue to want this man to be a German, but I don't see any support for this wild guess. It is a man in a French army uniform next to a truck with long rods, typically used by communication troops (to set up telegraph/telephone lines). The car has a steering wheel on the right hand side (sitting inside the car) as most cars even in Europe seemed to have at that point.

Jan

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, AOK4 said:

a truck with long rods, typically used by communication troops (to set up telegraph/telephone lines).

Ah yes, would fit the bill, so I was likely in the right zone with comms - Engineers?

1 hour ago, AOK4 said:

The car has a steering wheel on the right hand side (sitting inside the car) as most cars even in Europe seemed to have at that point.

Every day a school day with continental motor vehicle steering back then. 

M

[PRC]

7 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

I don't know why people continue to want this man to be a German, but I don't see any support for this wild guess

Perhaps when @Shayne can share more information about the circumstances in which in which this picture and other documents came into his families possession things will become clearer. For now via a PM they have advised that it is linked to the German soldier "Theo" referred to in the 1916 postcard in the parallel thread.

Of course we may be trying too hard to make the picture fit that narrative.

11 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

The car has a steering wheel on the right hand side (sitting inside the car) as most cars even in Europe seemed to have at that point.

Norm would have been left hand drive, but looking at some of the pictures online the French and German Armies appear to be using both left and right hand drive vehicles. So seems identifying the vehicle type will not be much help Does seem odd that the rod storage impedes access for the one person most likely to be in the cab.

58 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

truck with long rods, typically used by communication troops (to set up telegraph/telephone lines).

Definately more military than I was thinking! The ones I've seen in use for this purpose seem to have hooks \ cradles on them, but they may have been stored separately for transport and then attached. Resolution of the image isn't great but looks like the bottom couple of poles have pointed ends on them that haven't been capped off. That's what made me think they might have been used for unblocking things.

Cheers,
Peter

[Shayne]

I am beginning to think this man is a French Engineer and that he is not who my family has always thought of as 'Theo'.  From everyone's contributions and the fact my Ggrandmother's name is Eva I think we have this because my Ggrandmother was supposed to give this to 'Hilda' for 'Theo'.  I think if the picture of was of 'Theo' it would have just been labeled as such.

I am trying to let go of anything I have been told in the past and listen to the comments coming in.  I started with the goal of finding my family but now I'd like to try to identify the pictures and posts I have in order to return these items to the men's families since they did not normally make multiple copies of pictures back then. 

Everyone has been amazingly helpful - much appreciation to all - Shayne

 

 

[CorporalPunishment]

The vehicle looks to me to be a typical Italian lightweight type with pneumatic tyres all round and twin spare wheels, probably a Fiat or a Lancia, both of which were used by the British Army. Right-hand drive was the norm for Italian military vehicles for many years. Could our man possibly be Italian?.         Pete.

[Matlock1418]

On 19/08/2023 at 18:52, Shayne said:

 

Is it just my imagination/poor eysight, but to me ... someone [a censor??] seems to have blanked out his collar badges - might this perhaps reflect more on one continental nationallity over another ???

M