Tom Lang Posted 17 August , 2023 Share Posted 17 August , 2023 Were different Brigades in a Division identified with separate insignia? I am looking at 40th Division and 120th and 121st Infantry Brigades. I am wondering if these 2 Brigades (and others in the Division) would be identified by different insignia or shoulder patches. Kindest Regards, Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike_H Posted 18 August , 2023 Share Posted 18 August , 2023 Tom This is the original text re 40 Div from my booklet on ID schemes 1917 that was published by the MHS Mike 40th Division This division was inconsistent in the use of signs. The 119th Brigade wore unconnected battalion identifications. It adopted a diamond quartered in red, blue, yellow and green as a brigade sign which was worn by brigade troops but not by the infantry battalions. The 120th and 121st Brigades adopted a brigade sign of a coloured diamond with the battalions identified by coloured circles or stripes superimposed on these. The MGC companies and TMBs wore the brigade sign without other distinction. The well-known divisional sign of a bantam cock with a white diamond bearing an oak leaf and acorn sprig superimposed on it was adopted as a cloth badge, but did not appear until late 1917 or early 1918 when it was worn on the sleeves in combination with the other badges. 119th Brigade 19th R Welsh Fusiliers Horizontal rectangle bisected horizontally red over blue. 12th S Wales Borderers Green horizontal rectangle 17th Welsh Dark blue triangle 18th Welsh Yellow tape across the base of shoulder straps by o/r’s and at the top of sleeves by officers 119th MG Company Brigade sign, quartered diamond, red, blue, yellow & green 119th TM Battery Brigade sign, quartered diamond, red, blue, yellow & green 120th Brigade 11th King’s Own Red diamond with blue circle superimposed 13th E Surrey Red diamond with white circle superimposed 14th Highland L. I. Red diamond with green circle superimposed 14th A & S Hldrs Red diamond with yellow/buff circle superimposed 120th MG Company Red diamond 120th TM Battery Red diamond 121st Brigade 12th Suffolk Black diamond vertically bisected by a blue stripe 13th Green Howards Black diamond vertically bisected by a green stripe 20th Middlesex Black diamond vertically bisected by a yellow stripe 21st Middlesex Black diamond vertically bisected by a red stripe 121st MG Company Black diamond 121st TM Battery Black diamond From July 1917 the Division had an additional MG Company, the 244th, no details of a unit sign have been found. Pioneers 12th Green Howards Green diamond vertically bisected by a black stripe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 18 August , 2023 Author Share Posted 18 August , 2023 1 hour ago, Mike_H said: Tom This is the original text re 40 Div from my booklet on ID schemes 1917 that was published by the MHS Mike 40th Division This division was inconsistent in the use of signs. The 119th Brigade wore unconnected battalion identifications. It adopted a diamond quartered in red, blue, yellow and green as a brigade sign which was worn by brigade troops but not by the infantry battalions. The 120th and 121st Brigades adopted a brigade sign of a coloured diamond with the battalions identified by coloured circles or stripes superimposed on these. The MGC companies and TMBs wore the brigade sign without other distinction. The well-known divisional sign of a bantam cock with a white diamond bearing an oak leaf and acorn sprig superimposed on it was adopted as a cloth badge, but did not appear until late 1917 or early 1918 when it was worn on the sleeves in combination with the other badges. 119th Brigade 19th R Welsh Fusiliers Horizontal rectangle bisected horizontally red over blue. 12th S Wales Borderers Green horizontal rectangle 17th Welsh Dark blue triangle 18th Welsh Yellow tape across the base of shoulder straps by o/r’s and at the top of sleeves by officers 119th MG Company Brigade sign, quartered diamond, red, blue, yellow & green 119th TM Battery Brigade sign, quartered diamond, red, blue, yellow & green 120th Brigade 11th King’s Own Red diamond with blue circle superimposed 13th E Surrey Red diamond with white circle superimposed 14th Highland L. I. Red diamond with green circle superimposed 14th A & S Hldrs Red diamond with yellow/buff circle superimposed 120th MG Company Red diamond 120th TM Battery Red diamond 121st Brigade 12th Suffolk Black diamond vertically bisected by a blue stripe 13th Green Howards Black diamond vertically bisected by a green stripe 20th Middlesex Black diamond vertically bisected by a yellow stripe 21st Middlesex Black diamond vertically bisected by a red stripe 121st MG Company Black diamond 121st TM Battery Black diamond From July 1917 the Division had an additional MG Company, the 244th, no details of a unit sign have been found. Pioneers 12th Green Howards Green diamond vertically bisected by a black stripe Many thanks Mike. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 19 August , 2023 Author Share Posted 19 August , 2023 On 18/08/2023 at 08:33, Mike_H said: Tom This is the original text re 40 Div from my booklet on ID schemes 1917 that was published by the MHS Mike 40th Division This division was inconsistent in the use of signs. The 119th Brigade wore unconnected battalion identifications. It adopted a diamond quartered in red, blue, yellow and green as a brigade sign which was worn by brigade troops but not by the infantry battalions. The 120th and 121st Brigades adopted a brigade sign of a coloured diamond with the battalions identified by coloured circles or stripes superimposed on these. The MGC companies and TMBs wore the brigade sign without other distinction. The well-known divisional sign of a bantam cock with a white diamond bearing an oak leaf and acorn sprig superimposed on it was adopted as a cloth badge, but did not appear until late 1917 or early 1918 when it was worn on the sleeves in combination with the other badges. 119th Brigade 19th R Welsh Fusiliers Horizontal rectangle bisected horizontally red over blue. 12th S Wales Borderers Green horizontal rectangle 17th Welsh Dark blue triangle 18th Welsh Yellow tape across the base of shoulder straps by o/r’s and at the top of sleeves by officers 119th MG Company Brigade sign, quartered diamond, red, blue, yellow & green 119th TM Battery Brigade sign, quartered diamond, red, blue, yellow & green 120th Brigade 11th King’s Own Red diamond with blue circle superimposed 13th E Surrey Red diamond with white circle superimposed 14th Highland L. I. Red diamond with green circle superimposed 14th A & S Hldrs Red diamond with yellow/buff circle superimposed 120th MG Company Red diamond 120th TM Battery Red diamond 121st Brigade 12th Suffolk Black diamond vertically bisected by a blue stripe 13th Green Howards Black diamond vertically bisected by a green stripe 20th Middlesex Black diamond vertically bisected by a yellow stripe 21st Middlesex Black diamond vertically bisected by a red stripe 121st MG Company Black diamond 121st TM Battery Black diamond From July 1917 the Division had an additional MG Company, the 244th, no details of a unit sign have been found. Pioneers 12th Green Howards Green diamond vertically bisected by a black stripe Hello Mike, My interest lies in the 14th Bn Highland Light Infantry, 120th Brigade, 40th Division. Using your chart I created my 'impression' of what the shoulder insignia might look like. What do you think? Kindest Regards, Tom Lang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike_H Posted 21 August , 2023 Share Posted 21 August , 2023 Tom Sorry for delay in replying - you have it almost right apart from the proportions of the green circle. The actual sizes of an example in the IWM insignia collection is the diamond 2 3/4" high by 1 3/4"wide with a 1" circle superimposed. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caladonia Posted 21 August , 2023 Share Posted 21 August , 2023 Hello Tom Here is part of a photo, showing the patch of the 14th HLI, although the chap was not wearing the Div patch, it shows the detail of the Batt patch well. William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 24 August , 2023 Author Share Posted 24 August , 2023 (edited) On 21/08/2023 at 06:16, Mike_H said: Tom Sorry for delay in replying - you have it almost right apart from the proportions of the green circle. The actual sizes of an example in the IWM insignia collection is the diamond 2 3/4" high by 1 3/4"wide with a 1" circle superimposed. Mike Thanks Mike, I used my best ruler this time... Many Thanks, Tom. Edited 24 August , 2023 by Tom Lang Adjust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 24 August , 2023 Author Share Posted 24 August , 2023 On 21/08/2023 at 07:12, caladonia said: Hello Tom Here is part of a photo, showing the patch of the 14th HLI, although the chap was not wearing the Div patch, it shows the detail of the Batt patch well. William Hello William, Every little helps me to understand things better. A picture is worth a 1,000 words. Many Thanks. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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