3 Crosses/dots on Medal Card

[PhilB]

This card has three crosses with 4 dots each. 1 against Corps and rank, 2 against Christian name and MM and 3 against Victory medal. Could someone explain what they represent?

 

[JMB1943]

PhilB,

Possibly denotes which unit issued the particular medal?

Although MM clearly not awarded by 8th Bn Y &L Regt, he was serving there when the award was made.

Regards,

JMB

[Chris_Baker]

They highlight the details that are inscribed in the rim of the medals in question (name, rank, regiment etc).

[PhilB]

Thanks, gents - what indicates that the award was not by 8Y&L?

[TullochArd]

33 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Thanks, gents - what indicates that the award was not by 8Y&L?

The medal was gazetted LG 16.2.17 (Supp 29953 Page 1760) and does not mention a battalion.  The associated MIC*, although incorrectly references LG 19.2.17, clearly records "8th Bn York & Lanc R."

* Medal card of Sellars, J Corps: York and Lancaster Regiment Regiment No: ... | The National Archives

Edited 15 August , 2023 by TullochArd

[PhilB]

The MM and star show L/Cpl while the BWM and VM show Pte.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

5 minutes ago, PhilB said:

The MM and star show L/Cpl while the BWM and VM show Pte.

I thought that for the BWM & VM, the highest rank attained was impressed, along with the regiment with which he first entered the theatre of war.

[TullochArd]

11 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I thought that for the BWM & VM, the highest rank attained was impressed, along with the regiment with which he first entered the theatre of war.

Yes.  Seems to be an error?  His Service Record clearly shows he was a (paid) LCpl from 25.9.1915 and until his death.  He was York & Lanc R. throughout.

 

Edited 15 August , 2023 by TullochArd

[kenf48]

3 hours ago, TullochArd said:

Yes.  Seems to be an error?  His Service Record clearly shows he was a (paid) LCpl from 25.9.1915 and until his death.  He was York & Lanc R. throughout.

A slip that accompanied the BWM and VM medal stated:-

“To avoid unnecessary correspondence, kindly note that the Regtl. particulars inscribed on the British War & Victory Medals are those held on first disembarkation in a theatre of war. The rank is the highest attained, PROVIDED IT WAS HELD IN A THEATRE OF WAR OR OVERSEAS PRIOR TO 11.11.18. Appointments such as L/Sgts., L/Cpl/, etc. are not inscribed on Medals, SPECIAL NOTE TO THOSE WHO SERVED IN RIFLE REGTS. 'Rifleman" is not inscribed on War Medals, "Pte." being the correct designation of this rank.'

So not an error simply following the above convention whether he was paid or not. This was applicable only for the above medals, not the Star nor MM.

The crosses and dots are a reference mark, used frequently in manuscript documents. I used them often in manuscript documents in another life. Discussed before on here, essentially a printers mark.

In this case as noted by Chris they refer to the York and Lancaster Roll for the VM and BWM where he is shown as Private 8th Battalion, interestingly the MM is struck through on the Roll. Not a medal person but presumably the decoration was not inscribed on the two “war medals”.

[JMB1943]

5 hours ago, PhilB said:

Thanks, gents - what indicates that the award was not by 8Y&L?

PhilB,

My meaning was that , although a member of the 8th Y & L regt and presumably recommended by his CO, the MM was actually awarded by the King / Army and not the regt.

I  hope that my interpretation is correct.

Regards,

JMB

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

Appointments such as L/Sgts., L/Cpl/, etc. are not inscribed on Medals,

Ah, yes. Of course.

Thank you Ken

[TullochArd]

2 hours ago, kenf48 said:

So not an error simply following the above convention whether he was paid or not. This was applicable only for the above medals, not the Star nor MM.

I've had a look at a few similar awards and the convention is now quite obvious. Thanks for that Ken. 

Edited 15 August , 2023 by TullochArd

[PhilB]

“To avoid unnecessary correspondence, kindly note that the Regtl. particulars inscribed on the British War & Victory Medals are those held on first disembarkation in a theatre of war. The rank is the highest attained, PROVIDED IT WAS HELD IN A THEATRE OF WAR OR OVERSEAS PRIOR TO 11.11.18. Appointments such as L/Sgts., L/Cpl/, etc. are not inscribed on Medals,

As noted above, the MM and star are inscribed with L/Cpl so I assume that restriction applies only to BWM & VM?

 

[kenf48]

21 minutes ago, PhilB said:

As noted above, the MM and star are inscribed with L/Cpl so I assume that restriction applies only to BWM & VM?

 

Yes, as noted in my previous post the instruction only applied to the ‘war medals’. It was probably a decision based on the numbers of medals to be issued and the distinction between a rank and an appointment.  
It was noted that at the peak  30,000 medals a day were being posted out, no doubt a few slipped past the instruction. The note may not have been posted with all the medals, ephemeral but but nevertheless a few examples have survived and the actual note has been posted on the GWF.

[Allan1892]

@PhilB -- I don't know if you have seen this from the Sheffield Daily Independent 10th March 1917 (image courtesy of Find My Past)

 

[PhilB]

Thanks, gents. I’ve been trying for years to find if the MM was for 1/7/16 but without success!

[Ivor Anderson]

17 minutes ago, PhilB said:

I’ve been trying for years to find if the MM was for 1/7/16 but without success!

LG of 19 Feb 1917 was 'late awards for the Battle of the Somme, 1 July to December 1916' according to Chris Bate & Howard Williamson.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29953/supplement/1760

His MM index card has no schedule number, but it has an authorization ref. 68/121/57 which may be shared with other MM winners.

The MM card also has a 'D' on the top right which indicates that he was dead when the award came through.

As he died on 1 July 1916 it is possible that the award was for that date, but MMs were not meant to be awarded posthumously.

There may have been a dispute over whether it was recommended before he was declared dead. He may have been wounded/missing at the time?

Edited 16 August , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[PhilB]

If it was  'late awards for the Battle of the Somme, 1 July to December 1916'  and he died 1/7/16, does it not follow that it must be for that date?

[Ivor Anderson]

6 minutes ago, PhilB said:

If it was  'late awards for the Battle of the Somme, 1 July to December 1916'  and he died 1/7/16, does it not follow that it must be for that date?

I would have thought so , but if you can find other 8th Y&L MM awards for 1 July 1916 with the ref 68/121/57 that should pin it down.

Perhaps Howard or Chris can help?

[PhilB]

“As he died on 1 July 1916 it is possible that the award was for that date, but MMs were not meant to be awarded posthumously.”

Allan’s newspaper cutting above does mention that it was a posthumous award. However, it doesn’t make it clear who said it was posthumous!
 

 

[Ivor Anderson]

2 hours ago, PhilB said:

“As he died on 1 July 1916 it is possible that the award was for that date, but MMs were not meant to be awarded posthumously.”

Allan’s newspaper cutting above does mention that it was a posthumous award. However, it doesn’t make it clear who said it was posthumous!

The 19 Feb 1916 LG was known as the 'dead man's gazette' (note the 'D' on the top right of his MM index card) - TNA:

The award was finally approved at senior level after a delay and request for clarification, likely due to him having died the same day it was initially recommended.

His CWGC entry confirms his body was never recovered, so he may initially have been classed as 'missing in action', later assumed/confirmed dead.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/811993/joseph-sellars/

Edited 16 August , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

If the 8th York & Lancaster war diary does not list any awards then the one of the 23rd Division diaries might:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353270

However, awards for the early days of the Somme may be Corps or Army level awards.

If you can pinpoint any MMs confirmed to the battalion for 1 July 1916 they may have the same authority ref. 68/121/57 on their index card.

Edited 16 August , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[Don Regiano]

14 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

PhilB,

My meaning was that , although a member of the 8th Y & L regt and presumably recommended by his CO, the MM was actually awarded by the King / Army and not the regt.

I  hope that my interpretation is correct.

Regards,

JMB

Distinctly possible.  According to the war diary, of 23 officers 18 were killed (including the CO and Adjutant) and 5 wounded in the attack on 1 July.

 

1 hour ago, Ivor Anderson said:

The 19 Feb 1916 LG was known as the 'dead man's gazette' (note the 'D' on his MM index card).

The award was finally approved at senior level after a delay and request for clarification, likely due to him having died the same day it was initially recommended.

 

1 hour ago, Ivor Anderson said:

If the 8th York & Lancaster war diary does not list any awards then the one of the 23rd Division diaries might:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353270

However, awards for the early days of the Somme may be Corps or Army level awards.

Awards probably Senior level bearing in mind the casualty rate - all officers dead or wounded and 68 men returning out of 680.  I would imagine drawing up a list of recommendations for awards was the last thing on their minds on 1 July, especially bearing in mind some men were still returning on 2 July.

It all suggests "dead man's gazette" but doesn't rule out for earlier action.  Most of June appears to be spent at Henencourt/Millencourt, apart from a couple of raids around the Nab.  Haven't gone back any earlier.

[Ivor Anderson]

2 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

His CWGC entry confirms his body was never recovered, so he may initially have been classed as 'missing in action', later assumed/confirmed dead.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/811993/joseph-sellars/

His service record (Ancestry) confirms that he was initially listed as wounded on 1 July 1916, then 'missing' and eventually (7 Sept 1916) confirmed killed in action:

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1219&h=1741013&tid=&pid=&queryId=9f3821976af1057b9729ce82de9a67b4&usePUB=true&_phsrc=qzF9315&_phstart=successSource

Edited 16 August , 2023 by Ivor Anderson