15 Sqn Flying Officers 1918 - perhaps of interest?

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All,

Perhaps a GWF aficionado has the medals to one of these flyers, but not his Image?

On the other hand, one of our experts may well have information which may be of interest to others? One hopes so.

I believe two of the 15 Sqn group did not survive 1918...

It is of note that two of the Observers have yet to qualify for their Obs badges!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[tankengine888]

Just to help those people who want to try and find a photo for the people, I have tried to put an identity to each person though corrections will be needed.

Back Row
Possibly Second Lieutenant E.I Levy OR Flight Lieutenant J.M.D'a Levy

Lieutenant F.M McLellan [Naval; potentially P.M]

Lieutenant T.S Oliver OR Second Lieutenant H.D Oliver OR Second Lieutenant L.W Oliver [all 'Naval']

Second Lieutenant S.W Whittaker OR Lieutenant F.R Whittaker [Both Naval]

Second Lieutenant [Act. Lt. 28/8/1918] S.A Alder [Unsure]

 

Front Row
Second Lieutenant A. Manders [D.16 Nov 1918]

Second Lieutenant H.G Lomberg [Unsure]

Lieutenant R.D.G Pizey OR Captain Edmund May Pizey

Lieutenant F.C.U Dymant

Captain A.C Snow [Unsure]

UNSURE Jackson

UNSURE Welch

Zidane

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Zidane,

Good work! 

How did 2Lt Manders come to grief?

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[tankengine888]

Dear Kim,

Second Lieutenant Manders death is not known to me. I cannot find a first name, date of birth, cause of death, etc.. elusive!

The Medal roll reads 'Killed 16/11/1918'

Appears to be the only man who died on that day with 15 Squadron; Perhaps a plane crash where one died and the other survived..? Maybe Spanish Flu..

Either way, most of my sources list him as 'A Manders' without any age, family, etc.. Unless I've missed something, he basically doesn't exist... perhaps a thread might interest a few people.

Zidane.

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Zidane,

KiA 1918 ls sufficient for the unfortunate Manders, thanks.

15 Sqn was Freddie Elliot's squadron in 1917 (wounded over Bullecourt).

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

 

 

 

 

 

dD

Edited 11 August , 2023 by Kimberley John Lindsay

[hmsk212]

 Snow is Captain Charles Cuthbert Snow.

 

Steve

Edited 11 August , 2023 by hmsk212

[LDT006]

5 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

How did 2Lt Manders come to grief?

From airhistory.org:

2Lt Manders A. 15Sq  16/11/18 Died [E247 RE8] Spun to ground and burst into flames on practice flight. 2Lt A Manders
 

[tankengine888]

2 minutes ago, LDT006 said:

From airhistory.org:

2Lt Manders A. 15Sq  16/11/18 Died [E247 RE8] Spun to ground and burst into flames on practice flight. 2Lt A Manders
 

Cheers.. still odd about his elusive first name.

1 hour ago, hmsk212 said:

 Snow is Captain Charles Cuthbert Snow.

 

Steve

and cheers steve! I compiled those names on a whim whilst at school so I expected errors.

zidane,

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All, and Zidane, Steve, and LTD006,

Good work! Many thanks.

The RE8 was perhaps not as docile as previously thought...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[LDT006]

15 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

still odd about his elusive first name.

The same source has Arthur with a reference to AIR 76/332/25, will see if I can find something more.

Edit: It's also on his casualty form: https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/14609

 

Edited 11 August , 2023 by LDT006
link

[tankengine888]

2 minutes ago, LDT006 said:

The same source har Arthur with a reference to AIR 76/332/25, will see if I can find something more.

Ah, Arthur Manders.. I’m going to see if I can dig up a Birth record..

[hmsk212]

 

There is a 15 Squadron combat report available at the National Archives for Captain Snow

Combat Report :-  Air combat reports: 15 Squadron Royal Air Force. September 1918 | The National Archives

Steve

[Tawhiri]

11 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Second Lieutenant H.G Lomberg [Unsure]

Harry Graham Lomberg. According to his casualty form he was posted to 15 Squadron at the end of August 1918, which would help date the photograph further.

5 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Ah, Arthur Manders.. I’m going to see if I can dig up a Birth record..

His casualty form runs to two pages, and this page has a date of 1 September 1890 on it, and that he is married. It also has an address in Hackney, London for his wife, so if the 1890 date is his birth date, then this birth registered in Hackney in the last quarter of 1890 looks like a distinct possibility.

https://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/manders-a.-arthur

MANDERS, ARTHUR         Mother's maiden name: MURRY      
GRO Reference: 1890  D Quarter in HACKNEY  Volume 01B  Page 513

Casualty incident cards for his death.

https://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/manders-a.-arthur

https://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/7000251379-manders-a

https://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/manders-a

11 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Lieutenant F.C.U Dymant

Felix Charle Urban Dymant, posted to 15 Squadron in February 1918 according to his casualty form.

https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/6253

11 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Captain A.C Snow [Unsure]

More likely to be Lieutenant/Captain C C Snow, born 8 September 1891, his casualty form shows he was posted to 15 Squadron in April 1918. Already noted above that he was Captain Charles Cuthbert Snow.

https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/22656

He was still with the squadron in January 1919 when he was admitted to hospital.

https://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/7000258763-snow-c.c

Edited 11 August , 2023 by Tawhiri

[Tawhiri]

11 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

UNSURE Jackson

There are three possible candidates, Harry Lord Jackson, a second H.L. Jackson, and William Arthur Frederick Jackson, all of who spent time with 15 Squadron in 1918 according to Airhistory.org. The first two could be the same person, even though they have separate casualty forms, as they both start with an initial posting to 2 ASD on 31 August 1918 and then spend time with 15 Squadron in 1918. William Arthur Frederick Jackson was posted to 15 Squadron in March 1918, and then posted to Home Establishment in late September 1918. Harry Lord/H.L. Jackson was not posted to 15 Squadron until early September 1918, so if the photo was taken in August 1918 then William Arthur Frederick Jackson seems the most likely candidate. He was, however, an observer, and the individual identified as Jackson in the photo has pilot's wings so Harry Lord/H.L Jackson could be a more likely candidate on this basis.

Harry Lord Jackson

https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/12343

H.L. Jackson

https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/12344

William Arthur Frederick Jackson

https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/12368

Edited 11 August , 2023 by Tawhiri

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All, and Tawhirim

Good work!

This is putting more and more meat on the otherwise obscure group of Re8 Pilots and Observers. 

Perhaps someone has a medal group? For example an erstwhile Observer with 15 Sqn (wounded in 1917): Frederick Eden Elliot, RGA.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Tawhiri]

11 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

UNSURE Welch

Possibly Kenneth Gibbs Welch, as he was definitely serving with 15 Squadron later in 1918. Airhistory.org claims he was involved in two accidents within a couple of weeks in November 1918 while flying RE 8's with 15 Squadron, although I can't find any incident cards related to either. The implication though is that he was a pilot, which then fits with the pilot's wings he is wearing. 

https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/25260

 

[Tawhiri]

12 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Lieutenant R.D.G Pizey OR Captain Edmund May Pizey

More likely to be Royston Dudley George Pizey, as Airhistory.org notes a incident report for him while flying with 15 Squadron on 6 September 1918. It also helpfully notes the name of his observer, which confirms a second name in the photo.

Ok [C2440 RE8] f/l Sh57cP195A after exhaust valve tappet broke on counter attack patrol. Lt RDG Pizey Ok/2Lt AR Levey Ok

Levy in the photo is Arthur Robert Levey, who arrived on 15 Squadron in June 1918.

https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/29646

 

Edited 11 August , 2023 by Tawhiri

[Tawhiri]

12 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Lieutenant T.S Oliver OR Second Lieutenant H.D Oliver OR Second Lieutenant L.W Oliver [all 'Naval']

More likely to be 2nd Lieutenant Joseph Oliver, who was posted to 15 Squadron as an observer in September 1918.

https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/17733

He was certainly with the squadron by 10 October 1918, when he was involved in this incident while taking off with Captain C.C. Snow according to Airhistory.org.

Ok [B7887 RE8] Caught telegraph wires due engine not picking up on t/o for travelling flight. Capt CC Snow Ok/2Lt J Oliver Ok

[Tawhiri]

12 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Second Lieutenant S.W Whittaker OR Lieutenant F.R Whittaker [Both Naval]

More likely to be Charles Eacott Whitaker who was posted to 15 Squadron in August 1918 according to his casualty form.

https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/25469

[tankengine888]

I must say Tawhiri, you're doing a smashing job in finding the men!

[Tawhiri]

AIR 76 records for all those currently identified, which should allow you to confirm whether they were serving with 15 Squadron in the right time frame.

Charles Eacott Whitaker - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8240787

Joseph Oliver - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8211936

Kenneth Gibbs Welch - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8240060

Royston Dudley George Pizey - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8216384

Arthur Robert Levey - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8284211

Felix Charle Urban Dymant - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8256580

Charles Cuthbert Snow - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8228653

Arthur Manders - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8203430

Harry Graham Lomberg - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8285517

Harry Lord Jackson - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8276711 - possibly needs a second look, still not clear if he was with 15 Squadron in the right time frame

William Arthur Frederick Jackson - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8276819 - definitely an observer with 15 Squadron at the time, but wouldn't then be wearing pilot's wings

Many of these will also have a linked Army Officer's personal record too.

[Tawhiri]

Looking at little more closely at Harry Lord Jackson, Airhistory.org has the following two incidents in which he was involved.

The first was on 23 June 1918 at 5 TDS Stamford.

inj [C2433 RE8] Broke up after dive on floating target and sideslipped. Lt HL Jackson inj/Pte C Leichseuring inj [FF 01.05.18 FH53]

The second was on 24 September 1918 when he was with 15 Squadron.

Ok [C5065 RE8] Struck hangar on landing from test flight. Lt HL Jackson Ok/3AM H Scott Ok

I still think he is the likeliest candidate to be the pilot named as Lord in the photo, as it is clear from the above reports that he was a pilot, not an observer. Although he can't be pinned down as being with the squadron in late August 1918, the fact that he was on strength shortly afterwards must be in his favour.

Edited 11 August , 2023 by Tawhiri

[Tawhiri]

I'm not sure about the identification of the individual named Alder, according to his AIR 76 file Stanley Arnold Alder was born on 12 June 1884, so he would have been 34 if the photo was taken in late August 1918. The individual identified as Alder looks considerably younger than 34, in fact he looks as though he has come straight out of school. Assuming he didn't continue his service post-war there are eight AIR 76 files for individuals named Alder. Five of these were born in 1891 or earlier, so I'm inclined to dismiss these. That leaves three individuals, who are Sydney Alder, Thomas Gordon Edgecombe Alder born 1898, and Norman Alder born 1896. Thomas can be eliminated, he was killed in a flying accident at 3 TDS on 28 July 1918. Sydney Alder was a pilot and taken PoW in 1917 so that eliminates him as well. That leaves Norman Alder about who nothing is known, but according to his AIR 76 record he was discharged in July 1918 after being deemed unsuitable as a flying officer.

Back to square one again.