Coldstream Guards - Quartermaster Sergeants

[Glenn J]

I have a bit of a conundrum with the tunics of two of the Coldstream Guards Quartermaster Sergeants in the two groups below. Both are from the 3^rd Battalion Coldstream Guards around 1909-11. The (Regimental) Quartermaster Sergeant is evident from his star above the four bar chevron. However, the two others only appear to have one band of cuff lace in the first (earlier) photograph. Compare the cuffs of the left hand QMS to that of the Sergeant Major next to him. This would be regulation if the holder was an Orderly Room Colour Sergeant/Sergeant but surely not the case for an Orderly Room Quartermaster Sergeant on a first class tunic?  The 4 bar sitting next to the RQMS is ORQMS D.D. Jones, so I know that he is in fact an Orderly Room Quartermaster Sergeant. The other four bar is unknown to me but presumably because of the one band of cuff lace in the first group also a senior clerk of some description. Incidentally, I was not aware that there was a third Quartermaster Sergeant appointment on a battalion staff.

I would much appreciate any thoughts

Thanks

Glenn

[FROGSMILE]

On 08/08/2023 at 16:48, Glenn J said:

I have a bit of a conundrum with the tunics of two of the Coldstream Guards Quartermaster Sergeants in the two groups below. Both are from the 3^rd Battalion Coldstream Guards around 1909-11. The (Regimental) Quartermaster Sergeant is evident from his star above the four bar chevron. However, the two others only appear to have one band of cuff lace in the first (earlier) photograph. Compare the cuffs of the left hand QMS to that of the Sergeant Major next to him. This would be regulation if the holder was an Orderly Room Colour Sergeant/Sergeant but surely not the case for an Orderly Room Quartermaster Sergeant on a first class tunic?  The 4 bar sitting next to the RQMS is ORQMS D.D. Jones, so I know that he is in fact an Orderly Room Quartermaster Sergeant. The other four bar is unknown to me but presumably because of the one band of cuff lace in the first group also a senior clerk of some description. Incidentally, I was not aware that there was a third Quartermaster Sergeant appointment on a battalion staff.  

I would much appreciate any thoughts

Thanks

Glenn

Glenn you are not the first to be puzzled by this and the matter has been covered before in a thread here some years ago now.  It all relates to the pre 1915 arrangement for badges of rank and appointment.

The only book I know that attempts to cover these aspects is “SIMKINS SOLDIERS - THE BRITISH ARMY IN 1890 - Volume II The Infantry” by Colonel P S Walton. ISBN 0 948251 02 6 published by Picton Publishing (Chippenham) 1987.  

Edited 13 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Glenn J]

Many thanks for your kind and valuable input. Fiendish these guys are (and I say that as a retired Guardsman). Allow me to post the whole photograph. We see the two Drill Sergeants on the flanks of the first standing row. The Drill Sergeant at the extreme right is clearly wearing two cuff rings and a three bar chevron with colour badge. Also note the Sergeant Instructor in Musketry (next to the Drum Major), also wearing two cuff rings and three chevrons surmounted by the crossed rifles. The two subject Quartermaster Sergeants are also now wearing two cuff rings. All the photographic evidence I have seen of the Drill Sergeants in full dress  prior to the war depicts them with the Colour Sergeants' colour badge and the two cuff rings. The later Captain David Jones MC never held the appointment of Drill Sergeant, being promoted to Orderly Room Sergeant on 31 July 1903, Colour & O.R.Sgt.  on 31 July 1906 and to Quartermaster Sergeant on 31 July 1909.

Regards

Glenn

P.S. I am working my way through the "Dawney" trying to make sense of this period!

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Glenn J said:

Many thanks for your kind and valuable input. Fiendish these guys are (and I say that as a retired Guardsman). Allow me to post the whole photograph. We see the two Drill Sergeants on the flanks of the first standing row. The Drill Sergeant at the extreme right is clearly wearing two cuff rings and a three bar chevron with colour badge. Also note the Sergeant Instructor in Musketry (next to the Drum Major), also wearing two cuff rings and three chevrons surmounted by the crossed rifles. The two subject Quartermaster Sergeants are also now wearing two cuff rings. All the photographic evidence I have seen of the Drill Sergeants in full dress  prior to the war depicts them with the Colour Sergeants' colour badge and the two cuff rings. The later Captain David Jones MC never held the appointment of Drill Sergeant, being promoted to Orderly Room Sergeant on 31 July 1903, Colour & O.R.Sgt.  on 31 July 1906 and to Quartermaster Sergeant on 31 July 1909.

Regards

Glenn

P.S. I am working my way through the "Dawney" trying to make sense of this period!

 

 

 

 

Glenn let me look into this as I think I’ve got crossed wires and you’re right about the drill sergeants with their chevrons and colour badges.  I need to try and find the old thread and also dig out Col Waltons book.  I’ll do that and then get back to you.  I do recall Colonel Walton in the book saying that more research was needed even then (1987), but he made a good stab at it and left one with the conclusion that there was a logic to all of it.  In the meantime here is a photograph of a battalion Pay Sergeant around 1890 when a fantastic series of photos were done and included a set covering key appointments in the Scots Guards.  It’s notable that the Pay Sergeant is wearing a four bar chevron and a double ring of cuff lace.

Edited 8 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Glenn J]

Much appreciated. That is indeed a superb photograph of a Scots Guards Quartermaster Sergeant. I am wondering if in this case "pay" was synonymous with the role of the ORQMS?

Attached is a photograph of a Coldstream Guards Orderly Room Sergeant around the same period.

Regards and thanks again

Glenn

 

[FROGSMILE]

Glenn here are the relevant details from Colonel Walton’s analysis (he was at the time a chair of the military historical society and the Ogilby Trust).  It’s notable that a lot of uncertainty lay around the various grades of orderly room clerk and that might perhaps be the seat of the issue regarding four bars but single and double cuff rings.  From a logical viewpoint it can only be about distinguishing the various levels of battalion staff.

NB.  Note in particular the comments assigned to the asterisk* below.

Take heed also of his ‘Notes’ at the bottom of the paragraph on ‘1st Class Tunic’ and its reference to the orderly room appointments.

 

 

Edited 8 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

43 minutes ago, Glenn J said:

Much appreciated. That is indeed a superb photograph of a Scots Guards Quartermaster Sergeant. I am wondering if in this case "pay" was synonymous with the role of the ORQMS?

Attached is a photograph of a Coldstream Guards Orderly Room Sergeant around the same period.

Regards and thanks again

Glenn

 

Thinking through the normal role of an ORQMS it didn’t ordinarily involve pay unless that was something peculiar to the Guards, which is quite possible of course (it would also explain why Colonel Walton doesn’t mention the appointment of Pay Sergeant in his list of HQ staff).  Generally in infantry units pay was a responsibility of company colour sergeants under the supervision of their officer and I know that the Grenadiers still refer to their colour sergeants as ‘pay bloke’ for that reason.  Seeing establishment tables and being able to match them with a contemporaneous photograph might help to get to the bottom of it. 

Edited 8 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Glenn J]

Thank you for the Colonel Walton extract. 
 

Given that the two individuals are in both groups wearing one and two cuff rings respectively throws up a couple of possibilities:

1.   They were newly promoted and although the new chevrons were sewn on, the cuff embroidery had yet to be added.

2.   The appointment of ORQMS was authorised the wear of the second cuff ring in the period between photographs (1909-1911/12?)

Regards

Glenn

[FROGSMILE]

21 hours ago, Glenn J said:

Thank you for the Colonel Walton extract. 
 

Given that the two individuals are in both groups wearing one and two cuff rings respectively throws up a couple of possibilities:

1.   They were newly promoted and although the new chevrons were sewn on, the cuff embroidery had yet to be added.

2.   The appointment of ORQMS was authorised the wear of the second cuff ring in the period between photographs (1909-1911/12?)

Regards

Glenn

Funnily enough I was about to suggest your option two because there were various tweaks and changes across the army during that period.  It is the more logical I think.  Between 1912 and 1913 the double company system was introduced to the regular army infantry with the two colour sergeants being appointed to CSM and CQMS without change of rank.  It was in July 1915 that the former was then made up to the new rank of warrant officer class 2. 

As regards option one the brigade of guards had the best tailors in the British army and I think it would have been unconscionable for two SNCOs to be improperly dressed for a formal photograph.  I can just imagine the excuses being made to the sergeant major and his response to them….  It would also I think be too much of a coincidence for two SNCOs to have the same dress problem simultaneously.

NB.  To test the theorem out Glenn we need to examine similar group photos for the other Guards regiments over the same period and look for similar uniform details.  That will help to corroborate matters, or not.

Edited 9 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Glenn J]

22 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

To test the theorem out Glenn we need to examine similar group photos for the other Guards regiments over the same period and look for similar uniform details.  That will help to corroborate matters, or not.

Agreed,

it would be really useful to have on hand the official establishment of personnel of a Pre-war Foot Guards Battalion. I can understand there being two 4 bar ranks (the RQMS and ORQMS) but one often sees a third. Definitely no RQMS (T) in those days!

Not the clearest image, but this from the Grenadier Guards of 1907 appears to show the ORQMS wearing  double cuff rings. 

 

Regards

Glenn

Edited 9 August , 2023 by Glenn J

[FROGSMILE]

23 hours ago, Glenn J said:

Agreed,

it would be really useful to have on hand the official establishment of personnel of a Pre-war Foot Guards Battalion. I can understand there being two 4 bar ranks (the RQMS and ORQMS) but one often sees a third. Definitely no RQMS (T) in those days!

Not the clearest image, but this from the Grenadier Guards of 1907 appears to show the ORQMS wearing  double cuff rings. 

 

Regards

Glenn

The more I think about it the more I feel that your option two is very likely and that the ORQMS post was raised in status.  Around the same period the two colour sergeants were appointed to CSM and CQMS with the direct intent of mirror imaging the arrangement in battalion HQ of RSM and RQMS.  These latter comprised a WO and a first class staff sergeant and thus with a clear and logical pecking order.

To match that arrangement, in 1915 the CSM was raised to warrant officer of a second class and the CQMS was clarified as the equivalent of a second class staff sergeant.  Thus the two configurations at battalion and company level matched, but were also logically ascending stepping stones.

It seems to me to follow that the ORQMS, in his key battalion HQ appointment, should’ve been raised to match the RQMS and CSM in the level that in 1915 would become warrant officer of the second class.  That placed him one step below the superintending clerk, who like the sergeant major of battalion was raised to warrant officer first class, thus within the orderly room creating a logical structure and progression.  Raising the status of the ORQMS in that way would have elevated him to a tunic laced as first class.

NB.  Important to note that the cavalry and artillery had long had QMS of sub unit level (squadron and battery) whereas the infantry had not.  The infantry were emulating the same structure when they adopted the double-company organisation, so it became necessary for them to create QMS at both subunit and battalion level too.  It seems that the ORQMS was probably a knock on effect of that.  If this theorem is correct then presumably we need to find more earlier pictures with four bar chevrons but one cuff ring.

Edited 10 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

I’ve now had the chance to look at Clothing Regulations for the successive iterations of 1894 and 1914 respectively.

1.  Both iterations contain the details that applied before the introduction of warrant officer second class in July 1915.

2.  Both iterations also make clear statements that there were two levels for quarter-master-sergeants.  One for regiment / battalion and one for quote: “troop, battery, or company, having substantive (not acting) rank” unquote.**

3.  Both iterations have the caveat: “Battalion drill sergeant, Orderly room sergeants, and Armourer sergeant## [of] Foot Guards, will be allowed forage-caps of staff sergeant’s quality; and the tunics of the battalion drill sergeant¥¥, and orderly room sergeants will have extra lace”.

4.  Both iterations are consistent in categorising the battalion level quarter-master-sergeant as entitled to “Clothing of first class quality” and the sub-unit level quarter-master-sergeants as entitled to “Clothing of sergeant’s quality”.

5.  Overall this leads to the conclusion that an Acting Orderly Room Quarter-Master-Sergeant would wear four bar chevrons on his sergeants quality tunic, but as he was not substantive, he would not be entitled to the “extra lace” on his cuff and collar.

6.  Ergo your photos seem to show Acting ORQMSs who in the second photo had been made substantive and had the extra lace added accordingly. 

** this clearly stated caveat is important as it suggests that those of acting rank carried a lesser degree of distinction to their uniform, presumably because of the expense should their promotion not be made substantive subsequently.  The Foot Guards gold lace was expensive.

## the Armourer sergeant was still badged Foot Guards despite being on attachment from the discrete Corps of Armourers in 1894, but by 1914 was badged and dressed as AOC, having lost his Guards uniforms and scarlet infantry sash.

¥¥ this reference to a singular appointment of DS appears in both the 1894 and 1914 iterations.

Edited 10 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Glenn J]

Dear Frogsmile (sorry about that salutation),

thank you very much indeed for your continuing help in what some might consider rather arcane details of uniform; it is the type of stuff I particularly enjoy!

in the late nineties, I was serving at Regimental Headquarters Coldstream Guards and did manage some research. I only wish I had then, the portable book scanners and IPAD camera that I have now. I would have certainly plundered the archives and photograph collections of my own regiment and those of the other four Regiments of Foot Guards in the same building at Wellington Barracks!

The way I read the statement regarding “extra lace” was that the Sergeants’ quality tunic was laced as a first class tunic, albeit in the case of an Orderly Room Sergeant with just one cuff ring. I have a digital copy of the 1914 Clothing Regulations but have yet to track down 1894 in either original or digital format. I am still intrigued why the Scots Guards QMS you posted was captioned as “Pay Sergeant”. Lots to check and research!

As we know, the clothing regulations of the NCOs and soldiers were not of the descriptive level of detail as dress regulations for commissioned officers and therefore details are often difficult to ascertain. Another little thing that is bugging me is the Foot Guards Full Corporal (not the Lance Sergeant). Clearly not all Lance Corporals were appointed immediately to the rank of Lance Sergeant and held the rank of Corporal. The question is, when the peaked cap with brass band edging was introduced, did the Corporal wear the same two bands as the Lance Sergeant?

Regards

Glenn