1905 Enfield Shtl #1 mk1***

[Gunguy]

Hello there, new to the forum and trying to get some info on this rifle I recently acquired.  Unfortunately it has been crudely sporterized. Can anyone tell me if a #1 mk3 ishapore stock will fit it?  Also is it safe to shoot smokeless powder? I've seen some conflicting info out there.

Thanks!

[4thGordons]

We are prohibited from giving advice on safety or munitions so I will pass on that except to say that if the rifle is a MkI*** then it was resighted to fire the MkVII round which was smokeless. Whether it is currently in safe condition will depend on what has happened to it over the last century and a half and the general/overall condition of the rifle.  If you have any doubts -- get it checked by an gunsmith who knows Enfields (getting much harder to find these days)

Any chance of pictures? Does your rifle have an CR or GR prefix to its serial number by chance?

MkI*** rifles come in several different formats as a result of restocking/service modifications and post service life modifications. Some have a charger bridge, some have the original sliding charger head, some have early rear handguards others have had MkIII hand guards and rear-sight protectors fitted LOTS of variations.

Here is one of mine with no charger bridge but also missing the sliding guide on the bolt head -- and with a MkIII rear sight and handguard fitted but retaining the MkI foresight protector!

Few details (on another rifle)

(note straighter, inwardly curved foresight profile)

 

To answer your question - yes a MkIII Indian sight can be made to fit - but be aware stocking up an SMLE is quite complex - it is not just a drop in job.

There is a seller in Canada (sells on eBay) who makes very good reproduction MkI furniture (not super cheap but not extortionate either) - these too will need proper fitting etc and will look much better than an obviously incorrect Indian stock (probably with a transverse screw through it and probably also with a metal reinforce plate at the back)

Two of mine 1905 and 1906.

 

Chris

[Gunguy]

Mine has the cr prefix and is missing the rear volley aperture. Has a brass badge on the stock with letter N stamped on it at 12 and 6  oclock.

[Gunguy]

My rifle also has the sliding piece that I recently discovered had to do with loading a stripper clip. 

Edited 5 August , 2023 by Gunguy
Misspelled word

[Gunguy]

Saw a video that said if you use the ishapora screw instead of the original no mods were required to the stock. 

[Gunguy]

I fully understand the munitions advice in this day of liability. Had seen a post that talked about a stamp on the barrel "HV" just wanted to be sure that this was not BP cartridge rifle. Guy that owned it used it to hunt deer with smokeless powder cartridges. 

[4thGordons]

41 minutes ago, Gunguy said:

Saw a video that said if you use the ishapora screw instead of the original no mods were required to the stock. 

It will fit yes but it will not produce an accurate rifle unless you do lots of work - this is true of all SMLEs, the stocking up is quite complicated with upward pressure on the barrel etc and the fit at the draws needs to be precise...it is not a drop in and go affair if you want it to work properly (and not destroy the draws after a few rounds)... and it will not be historically accurate. Can/have they been made to work? Yes, for sure and I have done one myself when it was the only foreend I could find.

Most Indian stocks available have this: reinforcing strap at the back - which was a WWII and later addition

 

Thanks for the pics -- you have some of the most valuable bits there which is nice (the volley sights and the sliding charger clip)

 

Yes the sliding charger guide on the bolt head is used for charger loading -  if you look on the pic below you can see the two guides that the charger slots into holding it in place and allowing you to strip the rounds down into the magazine.

This was found to be easily gunked up, damaged and even lost and was replaced on the MkIII by the familiar charger bridge -- which works in the same way but is permanently in place and MUCH stronger

 

The CR prefix means it was one of the rifles sold to the Irish Free State (later Republic of Ireland) after WWI  - there is someone online who has done a lot of research on these rifles and has complied a list of the known serials. They were surplussed out in the US in (I think) the late 40s and sold very cheaply through a hardware store chain. Now they are desirable rifles - but many, like yours, have been sportered - but you are lucky you have all the bits that are usually missing.

 

Chris

[Gunguy]

Tickled pink to have this piece of history and even if I don't shoot it I'd like to return it to as close to its original form as possible.

[mancpal]

Sympathetic restoration appears to be the way to go. Its potential Ireland connection would be good to learn about.

Simon

Edited 5 August , 2023 by mancpal

[4thGordons]

 

28 minutes ago, mancpal said:

Sympathetic restoration appears to be the way to go. Its potential Ireland connection would be good to learn about.

Simon

Gunboards Enfield Forum username "Fritz" has compiled a lot of information on these rifles and lists of observed serial numbers. The Irish Free State rifles have added CR, ER and GR prefixes.  A very high proportion of the MkI*** rifles that show up in the US are from these lots. I have 3 two of which are shown in this thread the other is also "sportered" although less sympathetically than Gunguy's.

Incidentally I recently happened upon a small lot of 4 Irish Contract 1908 pattern Haversacks (dyed grey and 2 have faint Fianna Fail Sunburst stampings on them) I'm trying to work out a way to display them with one of these rifles (also have a black dyed 1903 Bandolier which are associated with inter-war Irish use)

Chris

[Gunguy]

Thanks to all of you for your valuable information! 

[5thBatt]

All .303 rifles use smokeless powder, the first Lee Metfords used a compressed black powder round but they were designed for smokeless powder but the round was still in development so a BP round was used in the interim, the first smokeless round was introduced in 1891

[MikB]

2 hours ago, 5thBatt said:

All .303 rifles use smokeless powder, the first Lee Metfords used a compressed black powder round but they were designed for smokeless powder but the round was still in development so a BP round was used in the interim, the first smokeless round was introduced in 1891

A bundle of sticks of Cordite MDT 5-2 doesn't look like powder .

It was loaded as a sheaf into the drawn case and topped with a pasteboard wad before the case neck was formed.

the MDT 5-2 bit stood for 'Modified, Deterred, Tubular' with a stick diameter of 5/100 in. and a central hole of 2/100 in.

The idea was that each stick burning from the inside outward would increase the surface area from which the propellant gas would evolve so as to balance the reducing surface area of the outside burning inward. Together with surface deterrents, this was intended to flatten the early pressure peak when the bullet had hardly moved along the bore, and maintain the pressure at an accelerative level as it went along, rapidly increasing the volume of barrel the gas had to fill.

Some called this 'progressive' burnlng, but it's probably more accurate to say 'less degressive'.

[Mk VII]

They barred out the original numbers and renumbered them all in a unique series intended to positively identify rifles supplied to the Free State Army that subsequently turned up in the North. 

Many were old/no-longer-standard models (Ordnance officers hate running a 'mixed fleet') that they took the opportunity to offload.

When these needed repairs by the 1930s it was done with whatever current parts BSA had to do them with, so hybrids that don't conform to the regulation patterns are known. 

[Chasemuseum]

With any old rifle, get it inspected and proof tested by a competent gunsmith if you want to shoot it.

 

With old .303s I always worry about headspace if they don't have the original matching number bolt. Your gunsmith will have the headspace "go" "No-go" gauges. That first part of the inspection takes 5 minutes.

[Gunguy]

Bolt matches the barrel thankfully. Have a new stock coming along with a bunch of other parts. Looking forward to interacting with a bunch of you to get this piece of history back to her old glory.

[Gunguy]

Just got this little gem in the mail today. Anyone point me to a good YouTube channel that shows the process of fitting the stock to the rifle? And I need the spring and (plunger?) that goes under the barrel, places I can look? Thanks

[Mattr82]

With regards to that wood, is that from Prestigious Stocks? I have about 5 sets of theirs to work on for a few restorations I have at the moment. If your rifle has the rear volley sight, then you will need to get the correct fore end for it. The one on your photo doesn’t have the space for it. Check my photo out to see what I mean. 
 

in order for the wood to go onto the rifle nicely, it needs a lot of work….and I mean a lot of work. There is a significant amount of shaping that is required as the wood is oversized in a lot of places so it can be trimmed to the correct standard.

[Gunguy]

Yes it is from Prestigious. I bought it on ebay from the original purchaser. Didn't do my homework and thought I was getting a super deal. Chatted a bit with them at Prestigious about modifying this stock for the volley sights. Unfortunately it's not possible. Being a machinist I'm reasonably certain I can mod it it myself using the old stock as a reference. I figure I have a winters worth of "fitting" to do it right.

 

[Mk VII]

You should bear in mind that this is not a gunsmithing forum, there are people who have more skill in that direction over at https://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=72

[Gunguy]

Exactly the info I was looking for. Ty.

[4thGordons]

In addition to Milsurps, the GUNBOARDS Lee-Enfield forum has a lot of very knowledgeable people: CLICK HERE