When did he arrive at Gallipoli?

[Keith_history_buff]

As mentioned on another thread, I am researching 15331 Thomas Seth Jones of the South Wales Borderers. This old soldier reenlisted under Special Reserve terms of service. Fortunately, some scraps of his service record have survived.

As recorded on his 1914-15 Star roll entry, he entered France & Flanders on 29 April 1915 with the 2nd Battalion. The thing is, they disembarked at Gallipoli on 25 April 1915.
The guidance on record-keeping for the 1914-15 Star states the following, in paragraph 9 of the Army Order that announced the medal

Quote

The names of officers and warrant officers will be entered on the rolls in order of rank, and those of non-commissioned officers and men in alphabetical order. The rank and regimental number entered in the rolls will be that held by an individual on the date of first entering a theatre of war. 

Regarding para 5 of Army Order 20 of 1919, the following partial extract is of interest

Quote

the Star will be granted to all.. who actually served on the establishment of a unit in a theatre of war as defined in Appendix A

Below is a partial reproduction of Appendix A, listing theatres of war

Quote

Appendix A

For the purpose of this Army Order the definition "Theatres of War" will be as follows:-
1. Western European Theatre.-To include all operations in France and Belgium from midnight 22/23 November 1914
2. Balkan Theatre.-To include all operations in:-
(a) Greek Macedonia, Serbia and Bulgaria, from 5th October, 1915
(b) Gallipoli and islands of Aegean Sea from 25th April, 1915
3.
4.
5.
6.

The thing is, in some instances I see the embarkation date recorded. This manifests itself on medal cards whereby the soldier entered the Gallipoli theatre of war on 17 March 1915, whereas for others the date of 25 April 1915 is recorded.

The 1914-15 Star roll not only provides an unhelpful date in this instance, but also provides an incorrect theatre of war.


This is contrasted by the detail on the BWM & VM roll, which does match what is contained within the scraps of his surviving service record

© 1997-2023 Ancestry.com

[Keith_history_buff]

There is a B.103 casualty form that covers his service at Gallipoli, partially reproduced below.

 

This is what I believe happened

29 Apr 1915  Troopship leaves the UK with reinforcements

16 May 1915 Reinforcements join 2nd Battalion, South Wales Borderers† 

22 May 1915 Confirmation that the reinforcements have arrived is transmitted back from MEF to Regimental HQ and J (Shrewsbury) Infantry Record Office

26 May 1915 Further reinforcements join 2nd Battalion, South Wales Borderers*

† Battalion war diary: '16 May 8:30pm Captain H.G.C. Fowler and 46 ranks and file joined the Battalion from England.'
* Battalion war diary mentions 15 Officers & 208 Other Ranks

I was wondering if anyone else had come across this, and researched it?

[Keith_history_buff]

An example of a soldier who disembarked with the main force, where the date of embarkation from Avonmouth has been recorded in the roll.
9611 William Henry Jones

 

[michaeldr]

On 03/08/2023 at 23:22, Keith_history_buff said:

This is what I believe happened
29 Apr 1915  Troopship leaves the UK with reinforcements16 May 1915 Reinforcements join 2nd Battalion, South Wales Borderers† 

† Battalion war diary: '16 May 8:30pm Captain H.G.C. Fowler and 46 ranks and file joined the Battalion from England.'

It is very difficult indeed to sort this one out but I think that, baring in mind the sparsity of documentary evidence, you are on the right track here.

Philip Lecane (Oak on this forum) mentions the same events on p.234 of his 'Beneath a Turkish Sky'

quote - "On 30 April, one officer and and forty-six men for each of the regular battalions of the 29^th Division sailed from England. (These drafts were approximately 5 per cent). They arrived during the first half of May”

[Keith_history_buff]

Many thanks for this extra information, Michael, it is much appreciated.

[michaeldr]

1 hour ago, michaeldr said:

quote - "On 30 April, one officer and and forty-six men for each of the regular battalions of the 29^th Division sailed from England. (These drafts were approximately 5 per cent). They arrived during the first half of May”

The WD [WO 95/4311] for the 87^th Inf Brigade confirms date (as you previously gave) from the SWB's WD

May 16^th: … … Drafts of about one officer and 45 men arrived for all battns in the 29^th Divn.

[kenf48]

On 03/08/2023 at 23:22, Keith_history_buff said:

I was wondering if anyone else had come across this, and researched it?

I have struggled with this dilemma for a number of years, and still have not resolved it entirely.

My grandfather Arthur Farmilo Pte 11677 a coal hewer (what else!) enlisted under Special Reserve terms at Newport on or around the 7th August 1914.  His service record has not survived and he died the year before I was born.  He was eventually posted to the 2nd Garrison Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers before being discharged on the 20th June 1919.

He therefore appears on the NF 14-15 Star Roll which shows he entered a theatre of war and joined the 2nd Battalion SWB (2b) on the 16th June 1915.

Fortunately the Service Record of 11676 Phillips has survived. He was discharged from the SWB and therefore appears on their 14-15 Star Roll.  This is the page of the SWB (Special Reserve) Roll:-

 

Image sourced from Ancestry

Pte Phillips record shows the 24th May 1915 i.e. the embarkation date:-

 

Images from FMP

What makes it even more complicated there was a draft embarked 10th May who apparently joined the 2nd Bn on the 26th May, i.e. the embarkation date e.g.Pte 11739 Gavin )this is the only page of his record which has survived - originally posted to 1st Bn):-

 

His draft of 208 other ranks joined the 2nd Battalion at Gully Beach which is apparently where the 2nd Bn 'rested' when out of the line.

Your draft is mentioned in the diary of Lieutenant (QM) E.K. Laman (royal Welsh Museum) and widely referenced in the highly recommended "Duty Nobly Done The SWB at Gallipoli" Rodney Ashwood. On the 16th May entry Lt Laman, Ernest  notes, "The draft under Caps Fowler  Major Going and self rejoined the Bn at Gully Beach.  Found on arrival that things are just about the same as when we left".

Records are sparse but there are other anomalies, e.g. 11951 Gwillym  is on the SWB (SR) 14-15 Star Roll 2b 31.5.1915 his record shows posted 2nd Battalion 10 May 1915 wounded 2nd July 1915 but although his Army Form B103 has not survived an extract shows he was in 13 General Hospital Boulogne with bronchitis on the 28th February 1915.

For now I'm working on the assumption my grandfather was in the same draft  as Pte Phillips and joined the Battalion on the 10th June but I would like to be more certain. Though the war diary doesn't mention drafts when in the line (for obvious reasons) Ernest notes on Thursday 10th June "Birkett and Silk arrived from Alexandria this morning and after lunch went up to join their Companies.  Poor Silk was killed by a chance bullet three hours later and was buried shortly afterwards."

It's one of those things I put down and keep coming back to but what makes it even more frustrating is my grandfather is shown on the BWM Roll as 2nd and 4th Battalion who landed on the Peninsula on the 15th July. When did he transfer? After the Campaign in Egypt? The 2nd GB NF were in Basrah so that accords with the Mesopotamia Campaign for the 4th SWB and transferring November 1917 to the Northumberland Fusiliers.

 

 

 

[michaeldr]

58 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

On the 16th May entry Lt Laman, Ernest  notes, "The draft under Caps Fowler  Major Going and self rejoined the Bn at Gully Beach.  Found on arrival that things are just about the same as when we left".

Records are sparse but there are other anomalies, e.g. 11951 Gwillym  is on the SWB (SR) 14-15 Star Roll 2b 31.5.1915 his record shows posted 2nd Battalion 10 May 1915 wounded 2nd July 1915 but although his Army Form B103 has not survived an extract shows he was in 13 General Hospital Boulogne with bronchitis on the 28th February 1915.

Captain H. G. C. Fowler 1st Battn. S.W.B. was Mentioned in Despatches by French (p.305 Complete Despatches of Lord French 1914-1916)
and he seems to have come to Gallipoli and to the 2nd Battn. after a time in the UK sick or wounded

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, michaeldr said:

Captain H. G. C. Fowler 1st Battn. S.W.B. was Mentioned in Despatches by French (p.305 Complete Despatches of Lord French 1914-1916)
and he seems to have come to Gallipoli and to the 2nd Battn. after a time in the UK sick or wounded

Thanks Michael some other snippets:-

Captain Hugh Griffith Coke Fowler  D.S.O., was born Brecon 12.1.1882 and educated at Tonbridge School and the RMA Sandhurst. Commissioned  2Lt SWB 11.5.1901; Lt 12.4.1905; To Reserve 12.3.06; Capt. (SR) 1.2.1913. Maj.8.1.1916. Retd. 28. 4.1920.

Was at Tsingtao with the 2nd Bn; then to 1st Bn and France 8.12.1914 - 21.12.1914 (Wounded Festubert). To Gallipoli 2nd Battalion 15.5.1915 - 5.7.1915 (sick). Returned to France with 1st Bn which he commanded 23.10.1917 - 21.12.1917 and then on to  Russia 1.11.18 - 9.1919. 

DSO LG 25.8.1915 (Gallipoli) MID LG 22.6.15, 25.81915, & 4.1.1917

Died Brecon 7.2.1947,

Ashwood ibid 

(I  know it's off topic but I think we could say a very gallant gentleman who deserves to be remembered.)

There's an interesting passage in the 2nd Bn WD where a sports day was held on Lemnos the most popular event was listed as  -  'the bomb throwing competition'.

To bring it back on topic that's why I get so frustrated with the Medal Rolls as so much was happening on an almost daily basis it would be good to know with a bit more certainty when drafts arrived. 

[michaeldr]

5 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

(I  know it's off topic but I think we could say a very gallant gentleman who deserves to be remembered.)

Agreed 100% - thanks for the fuller picture

[Keith_history_buff]

I have now come across a different methodology that results in misleading information.

Below is one of the Army Form B.103 sheets from the surviving record of 15543 Richard Groom.

Image sourced from Ancestry

I can derive the following timeline:

24 May 1915  Troopship leaves the UK with reinforcements

10 June 1915 Reinforcements join 2nd Battalion, South Wales Borderers 

13 June 1915 Confirmation that the reinforcements have arrived is transmitted back from MEF to Regimental HQ and J (Shrewsbury) Infantry Record Office


Now we look at the medal roll:


Image sourced from Ancestry

The clerk seems to have used the date of confirmation from the B.213, and even then, they have added a day!

[alantwo]

@Keith_history_buff @michaeldr @kenf48

A few bits and pieces of information I can confirm/add.

The 2nd South Wales Borderers embarked HT Canada for the MEF at Avonmouth on 17th March 1915, a total of 964 Officers and Men, including the CO Lieutenant Colonel HC Casson.

Lieutenant Rawle of the South Wales Borderers (Bn not given) embarked the City of Edinburgh at Avonmouth with 70 Men and 90 Horses the same day for the MEF.

On the 29th April, Captain HGC Fowler and 46 Men of the 3rd South Wales Borderers, reinforcements for the 2nd Battalion, embarked HT Lake Manitoba at Devonport for Gibraltar, Malta and Egypt.

A draft of Officers and 211 Men of the 3rd South Wales Borderers, for the 2nd Battalion, embarked HT Orsova at Devonport on 10th May for Gibraltar and Egypt. The senior officer was Major EW Jones.

There are other reinforcements recorded but they are not around the date you are interested in, however one interesting entry in the embarkation records is a SWB man who is described as ex Horoata. He is on board SS Knight Templar with the 58th Brigade RFA departing Devonport on 1st July. There will be a number of reasons why he could have missed the ship his unit sailed with, however his date of entry is probably unique within the regiment and it might be possible to find out who he is.

I hope this helps.

Regards

Alan

Edited 16 August , 2023 by alantwo
Sorry Ken missed you off the original post!

[Keith_history_buff]

Alan, many thanks for this extra information.

William Rawle gets a mention on the following thread. Interesting that he was promoted to Captain in 1915.

 

[Keith_history_buff]

On 05/08/2023 at 13:27, kenf48 said:

My grandfather Arthur Farmilo Pte 11677 a coal hewer (what else!) enlisted under Special Reserve terms at Newport on or around the 7th August 1914.  His service record has not survived and he died the year before I was born.  He was eventually posted to the 2nd Garrison Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers before being discharged on the 20th June 1919.

[snip]

It's one of those things I put down and keep coming back to but what makes it even more frustrating is my grandfather is shown on the BWM Roll as 2nd and 4th Battalion who landed on the Peninsula on the 15th July. When did he transfer? After the Campaign in Egypt? The 2nd GB NF were in Basrah so that accords with the Mesopotamia Campaign for the 4th SWB and transferring November 1917 to the Northumberland Fusiliers. 

There's a few other transfers that I noticed
 

15606 John Brown
Enlisted under SR terms of service on or around 1 Jun 1915. (Enlistment dates for 15604 & 15605 are 1 Jun 1915.) Disembarked at Gallipoli on 31 Oct 1915 to join 4th Battalion, according to the medal roll. Transferred to the 2nd Garrison Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers, 77398. Transferred to Class Z in 1919.

15627 William Martin
Enlisted under SR terms of service on or around 19 Jun 1915. (Enlistment date for 15626 is 19 Jun 1915.) Disembarked at Gallipoli on 15 Oct 1915 to join 4th Battalion, according to the medal roll. Transferred to the 2nd Garrison Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers, 49510. Transferred to Class Z in 1919. Correspondence address on MIC from 1924: Neuadd Arms Hotel, Llanwrtyd Wells, Brecon.

I'll take a look at the Gallipoli entry dates that I have come across so far in a subsequent post.

[Keith_history_buff]

Based on the small population that I have, I am seeing the following:

2nd Battalion
Disembarkation recorded as 17 March 1915

Reinforcement disembarkation dates as follows

29 Apr 1915, as per the start of this thread (true disembarkation date being 16 May 1915, with the aforementioned Captain HGC Fowler.)
10 May 1915, as per this thread (true disembarkation date being 26 May 1915, with Major Edward Whitmore JONES 1869-1947. He was at Tsingtao, unlike Fowler.)
25 May 1915
31 May 1915
14 June 1915, as per this thread (true disembarkation date being 10 June 1915, actual embarkation 24 May 1915, example of SR 15543 Richard GROOM)
15 June 1915
30 June 1915
3 July 1915
21 July 1915
5 Aug 1915
7 Aug 1915
13 Aug 1915 drowning (Embarked HMT Royal Edward on 28 Jun 1915. Example of SR 15613 Thomas Molineaux, one of the majority who drowned)
19 Aug 1915 for 24791 John Mitchell, a regular who survived the sinking of HMT Royal Edward on 13 Aug 1915. Same for 19347 Arthur Bonney (1895-1987) who made an oral history recording for the IWM.
26 Aug 1915 for 19456 Sidney Jones, a regular who survived the sinking of HMT Royal Edward on 13 Aug 1915. Same for 12232 Hadley (1890-1915) & 19599 Harris, as mentioned elsewhere on the GWF. Likewise for 24825 George Warren.
16 Aug 1915
1 Sep 1915
12 Sep 1915
19 Sep 1915
22 Sep 1915
2 Oct 1915


4th Battalion
Disembarkation at Gallipoli on 15th & 19 July 1915

Reinforcements disembarkation dates as follows

31 Oct 1915
5 Nov 1915
15 Nov 1915

This date information has been manually compiled from medal index cards. 

[Keith_history_buff]

Quote

My grandfather Arthur Farmilo Pte 11677... He therefore appears on the NF 14-15 Star Roll which shows he entered a theatre of war and joined the 2nd Battalion SWB (2b) on the 16th June 1915.

He was eventually posted to the 2nd Garrison Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers [56762 in Nov 1917] before being discharged on the 20th June 1919.

A similar situation:
William Williams was a Boer War veteran who enlisted under Special Reserve terms of service on 5 Apr 1915. He has scraps of his service record that survive. The office clerks record his service with the M.E.F. commencing on 24 May 1915 yet their colleagues record an entry date of 6 June 1915. He was wounded in the lung on 6 July 1915, and is on the War Office wounded list dated 7 Aug 1915.

He was transferred to the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, 38075, and was medically discharged on 2 Aug 1917, in receipt of a Silver War Badge.

Image sourced from FindMyPast
 

[Keith_history_buff]

Medal roll
Image sourced from Ancestry
 

[Keith_history_buff]

Interesting to see that in the instance where Royal Edward fatalities were removed from the medal roll, the recording of dates were giving the clerks issues too, and they have had to mark with an asterisk, and point out it is embarkation date.

 

Medal roll
Image sourced from Ancestry
 

[Keith_history_buff]

15263 George Shearn enlisted under Special Reserve terms of service during November 1914 in the South Wales Borderers. He died of wounds on 22 August 1915 and is commemorated on the Helles Memorial.

The 2nd Battalion South Wales Borderers disembarked on 24 April 1915 at Gallipoli, but Shearn's MIC and medal roll entry record his disembarkation on 2 February 1915.

 

[Keith_history_buff]

Note to self
Interesting to see example of Private Thomas Henry Pope Service#15834 1st Bn Essex Regiment

 

WO 379/16 Dates of embarkation of units going overseas

image of the Embarkation Return for Northland on the 2nd September 1915 - kindly provided by alantwo on second page of thread
'Embarked at DEVONPORT on the 2nd. Sept. 1915       for the port of MEDITERRANEAN'
250 men of 1st Essex Regiment
93 of 2nd South Wales Borderers draft of reinforcements
(Both of the above battalions are in the 29th Division)
Other units listed too

17 September 1915 - Arrival at Mudros- kindly provided by RussT on second page of thread

Per the 1st Essex WD [WO95/4312] 
19 September 1915 – Draft arrived from England 3 officers 248 men. - Kindly provided by michaeldr on first, then second, page of thread

 

 

Edited 11 February by Keith_history_buff
Added the archive reference