3rd november 1914 bombardment of Dardanelles

[martin75]

Hello,

can someone tell me which ships accompanied Indomitable, Indefatigable, Suffren and Vérité on
3rd november 1914 during the bombardment of the forts at the entrance of Dardanelles straits.
Thanks in advance
Claude

[horatio2]

The ship's log of HMS BLENHEIM for 3 November 1914 shows that HM Ships BLENHEIM, GRASSHOPER and RATTLESNAKE, while not part of the bombarding squadron of four battleships, were in the offing. HMS DUBLIN and other destroyers were also in the area around Tenedos (see log entry for 5 November).   http://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-05-HMS_Blenheim.htm

The Admiralty Pink List for 1 November 1914 shows:  

MEDITERRANEAN

INDEFATIGABLE (Flag) - South of Tenedos Island
INDOMITABLE - South of Tenedos Island
DUBLIN - South of Tenedos Island, 10 T.B.D. - South of Tenedos Island
BLENHEIM - South of Tenedos Island,
Submarines B.9, B.10, B.11

The following destroyers of the 5th Destroyer Flotilla (Med Fleet) are lisited as parented by depot ship HMS BLENHEIM  in September 1914:-

Basilisk     Beagle     Bulldog     Foxhound     Grampus     Grasshopper     Harpy     Mosquito     Pincher     Racoon     Rattlesnake     Renard     Savage     Scorpion     Scourge     Wolverine     

Some (most?) of these destroyers may have still been at the Dardanelles with BLENHEIM on 3 November 

Edited 4 August , 2023 by horatio2

[martin75]

Thanks for your answer.

The log  of Blenheim refers to the 1st and 3rd divisions of destroyers but I don't know which destroyers were present in each division.

Do you know how many shells were fired by each battlecruiser. I have found a total of 46 or 48 rounds. 

The Suffren fired 30 rounds of 305 mm and the Vérité 25 rounds of 194 mm respectively on Kumkale and Orhaniye.

Best regards 

Claude 

[michaeldr]

1 hour ago, martin75 said:

Do you know how many shells were fired by each battlecruiser. I have found a total of 46 or 48 rounds. 

As far as I can tell Vice Admiral Carden's report of 14 November 1914 does not mention the total number of shell expended, however his item 2 (explaining the 'object aimed at' in the demonstration) does mention that "Eight rounds per turret was allowed."

[horatio2]

From the Official History of naval operations:-   "... Admiral Carden approached the Dardanelles to carry out the bombardment. He himself, with the two battle cruisers, took the batteries at Sedd-el-Bahr and Cape Helles on the European side of the entrance, while the French battleships dealt with, those on the opposite side at Kum Kale and Orkanieh. Each group of ships made one run at long range, lasting about ten minutes, during which time the British fired forty-six rounds of 12" and the French thirty rounds." [Possible that the French 194mm (7.6-inch) rounds are not counted, only 12-imch/305mm.]

Eric Bush in his "Gallipoli" (p.31) states (without source reference): "The ships steamed past the forts at a range of 13,000 yards and fired eighty sahells."

The log of BLENHEIM actually notes four destroyer divisions and several numbered sub-divisions (up to 7th). I can find no source of a breakdown.

 

Edited 5 August , 2023 by horatio2

[michaeldr]

The map below and the text details are taken from the description of this action as given in the Mitchell Report [REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO INVESTIGATE THE ATTACKS DELIVERED ON AND THE ENEMY DEFENCES OF THE DARDANELLES STRAITS. 1919]

commencing page 22

 

“8 - The bombardment was carried out by 'Indefatigable' (Flag of Vice-Admiral Carden), 'Indomitable,' 'Suffren' and 'Vérité' commencing at 0455 (G.M.T.) on 3rd November.

The object aimed at, as stated in the orders, was to do as much damage as possible in a short time with a limited number of rounds at long range, and to turn away before the fire from the forts became effective.

It was arranged that eight rounds per turret should be fired ; sixty-four rounds in all, from the two British ships against the forts on the European side, while the French ships fired at the forts on the Asiatic side.

The conditions which prevailed were fairly favourable, a wind of 38 ft. per second was blowing from a direction 80 deg. to the left of the line of fire. The sun rising behind the hills made objects on the European side indistinct ; but it was just possible to make out the rough outline of fort Sedd el Bahr with high-power glasses, at the beginning of the run.

The positions of the ships, ranges, and times of commencing and ceasing fire are shown on Plate 1, except that, being somewhat early in approaching, the squadron was turned thirty-two points about half an hour before commencing the run; notwithstanding this and the strong cross current, the Squadron was brought to the pre-arranged position and turned on to the line for the run with great accuracy.

 

9 - 'Indefatigable' and 'Indomitable' opened fire on Fort Sedd el Bahr (No. 3), both ships using the steep point of Eski Hisarlik as a point of aim. The course and speed was so arranged as to get this point in line with the fort half-way through the run, in case the fort itself should not be visible. 'Suffren' and 'Vérité' fired at Kum Kale (No. 6) and Yeni Shehr Forts (Nos. 4 and 5). The range was by measurement off the chart, and the point of aim the forts themselves, which were clearly visible standing well up on the horizon ; the light, however, was bad for seeing the effect.

A sighting shot from 'Indefatigable' fell 'left' and 'over.' The first salvo fell short, in line with the fort ; the second was in line with the fort and a burst was observed on the shore, either against the walls of the fort or on the rocks below.

The first salvo of 'Indomitable' fell to the left of the fort ; the second appeared in line.

After the first two salvos, it was very difficult to make out the bursts on account of smoke hanging and presumably smoke from the village behind the fort.

Five minutes after the commencement, an explosion was observed in Fort Sedd el Bahr, a column of dark grey smoke and debris reaching a height of 300 to 500 ft. This was presumed to be, and in fact was, the explosion of the magazine inside the fort, and from this it was argued that, without doubt several shells, besides the one which had caused the explosion, had fallen on the fort.

During the run, 'Indomitable' changed her point of aim to Cape Helles Lighthouse, her object being the guns firing from Fort No. 1 at which about six rounds were fired, but the rounds did not apparently fall sufficiently close to cause any damage. The guns could not be seen except when they were actually firing.

During this time 'Suffren' was bombarding Kum Kale (No. 6) with 12-in. guns, and 'Vérité' Fort No. 4 with 8-in. guns. It was found impossible to observe the result of their fire, but shells were seen to be bursting in the vicinity of their objectives. The only actual result seen from ships was a fire, started by 'Suffren’s' guns, possibly in the village close to Kum Kale.

 

10 - The reply of the forts, which began about three minutes after the commencement, was bad as the personnel were taken unawares, but towards the end of the bombardment it improved, shells falling near the ships as they turned away on completion of the run. One shell, from No. I battery, fell between 'Indefatigable' and 'Indomitable,' and close to the latter.”

[martin75]

Thanks to both.

According turkish documents, Ertugrul fired 4 shells "old model" and Orhaniye 5 shells "old model" and 1 "new model"

In "Canakkale Muharebelerinde Müstahkem Mevki Cerideleri" (volume 2), it is specified that during the explosion of the main magazine of Seddülbahir Fort, were destroyed :

- for 24 cm L/22  :  48 hardened cast iron shells with 55 propellant charges         82 cast iron shells with 92 propellant charges

- for 26 cm L/22  :   0 hardened cast iron shells with 11 propellant charges          86 cast iron shells with 101 propellant charges

- for 28 cm L/22  :  32 hardened cast iron shells with 36 propellant charges         34 cast iron shells with 42 propellant charges

- for 8,7 cm L/24  :  811 shells

also 859 kg of prismatic powder, 3 barrels of gunpowder, 57000 cartridges, ...

5 officers and 81 men were killed ad 1 officer and 21 men wounded in Seddülbahir   /    1 man was slightly wounded in Kumkale

Best regards

Claude

[michaeldr]

46 minutes ago, martin75 said:

859 kg of prismatic powder

I found the following explanation useful regarding the term 'prismatic powder' - from The Late Victorian Navy by Roger Parkinson

Edited 5 August , 2023 by michaeldr

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Just to add I record these Ottoman officers lost that day.

Topçu Tegmen/Üstegmen    Lt    Cevdet    2Bty at Seddulbahir Fort 1Bn/5th Heavy (Agir) Artillery Regt (Fortress)    KIA 3-11-14    
Tegmen/Üstegmen    Lt Adjt    Cevdet Efendi    Fort at Seddülbahir at Dardanelles    KIA 3-11-14    killed in the explosion were 5 officers and 81 other ranks 
Mülazim-i sani / Üstegmen    2/Lt    Esref Efendi    Fort at Seddülbahir at Dardanelles    KIA 3-11-14    killed in the explosion were 5 officers and 81 other ranks 
Mülazim-i / Tegmen / Üstegmen    Lt    Hasan Pala Efendi    Fort at Seddülbahir at Dardanelles    KIA 3-11-14    killed in the explosion were 5 officers and 81 other ranks 
Mülazim-i / Tegmen / Üstegmen    Lt    Riza Efendi    Fort at Seddülbahir at Dardanelles    KIA 3-11-14    killed in the explosion were 5 officers and 81 other ranks 
Topçu Tegmen/Üstegmen    Lt    Sevki Efendi    1Bty at Seddulbahir Fort 1Bn/5th Heavy (Agir) Artillery Regt (Fortress)    KIA 3-11-14    
Yüzbasi     Capt    Sevki Efendi    Commander Fort at Seddülbahir at Dardanelles    KIA 3-11-14    killed in the explosion were 5 officers and 81 other ranks 

So how many officers were killed?

S.B

[KizmeRD]

I don’t have that much knowledge of this, but weren’t there also some Germans who were killed and injured as a result of the bombardment (in addition to Turks)?

MB

[martin75]

5 officers were killed :

Üstegmen Sevki Efendi, son of Hasan Pasha, born 1885 Istanbul

Üstegmen Ahmet Cevdet Efendi, son of Rasid Bey, born 1885 Sivas

Üstegmen Hasan Efendi, son of Mehmet Ali Bey, born 1869 Lesbos

Tegmen Esref Efendi, son of Zülfikar Bey, born 1893 Kosova Senice

Tegmen Ali Riza Efendi, son of Ismail Nuri Bey, born 1889 Ankara

[martin75]

The officer wounded was Yüzbasi Semsettin born 1885 in Creta.

To my knowledge, no German killed or wounded.

[michaeldr]

Klaus Wolf's Appendix 2 of his 'Victory at Gallipoli 1915' [translated by T. P. Iredale] does not list any Germans as killed on 3^rd November 1914

[michaeldr]

17 hours ago, martin75 said:

5 officers and 81 men were killed ad 1 officer and 21 men wounded in Seddülbahir  

A crop of Plate No.58 from the Mitchell Report illustrating the fort at Sedd el Bahr where the catastrophic magazine explosion occurred

[michaeldr]

1 hour ago, martin75 said:

5 officers were killed :

Üstegmen Sevki Efendi, son of Hasan Pasha, born 1885 Istanbul

Üstegmen Ahmet Cevdet Efendi, son of Rasid Bey, born 1885 Sivas

Üstegmen Hasan Efendi, son of Mehmet Ali Bey, born 1869 Lesbos

Tegmen Esref Efendi, son of Zülfikar Bey, born 1893 Kosova Senice

Tegmen Ali Riza Efendi, son of Ismail Nuri Bey, born 1889 Ankara

The photographs below show the burial plot outside the gate of the fort and the plaque naming the officers who died.

Please note that these pictures date from 13 years ago and recently much restoration work has been carried out at this fort. Therefore I cannot say that this scene is necessarily the same today

[martin75]

on the plate, Sevki is indicated as captain (Yüzbasi)  but in fact it seems to have had only the rank of 1st lieutenant (Üstegmen). You'll find attached a turkish article dealing  with the subject.

The text can be easily translated thanks to google translate or other.

Regarding the fort of Seddülbahir, does anyone know how the cannons were laid out ; all allied texts refers to 28 cm guns but in fact there were 2 x 24 cm (1st battery) and 2 x 26cm and 2 x 28 cm (2nd battery). It seems logical to think that the two 24 cm guns were disposed on the emplacements firing south-west, but this is only a guess !

CANAKKALE_SAVASI_ILE_ILGI_YANLISLIKLARA.pdf

[michaeldr]

19 hours ago, martin75 said:

all allied texts refers to 28 cm guns

That may be true, but only up until the occupation of the fort on 25/26th April 1915 when the following were confirmed:-

Two 28-cm. L/22 Krupp 
Two 26-cm. L/22     '' 
Two 24-cm. L/22     ''
Four 87mm Q.F. 

The six Krupp guns were positioned per Fig.3 above. Alas, none of the texts which I have access to describes exactly where each and every gun (24cm, 26cm & 28cm) was specifically positioned. The four 87mm QF (sometimes given as 8.8cm) where almost certainly placed on the lower terrace facing directly across the Dardanelles.  See my post below of 07/08/2023

Michael Forrest's photograph from his book 'The Defence of the Dardanelles'  [ISBN 978 1 78159 052 2] may be of help here

 

Edited 7 August , 2023 by michaeldr

[stevenbecker]

There were a large number of Germans killed that month, but I also could not find any lost that day, almost all were lost later that month from ships in the Black Sea, or the Ottoman Minelayer in the Bospuros

I could not find any Germans attached to the Seddülbahir Fort which took the main beating and the Kumkale Fort

While a number were close to these Forts, none appear to be with them at that time, I have others attached to these forts like;

Freund Alfred    Lt    Sdr-Kdo (Sonderkommando Usedom) Artillery officer - Coastal Artillery at Forts Hamdiye and Seddulbahr and Canakkale 
Gössel Konrad    ObLtzS Marine    Sdr-Kdo (Sonderkommando Souchon) at Seddulbahr Dardanelles - Coastal Artillery
Kähler Clemens    LtzS deR Marine    Adjt Bosphorus Transport officer later Salvage officer at Seddulbahr RTG to Airforce 1915-18 to U Boats 1918 

Kumkale

Wörmann (Woermann) Hans Eberhard Eduard Rudolf    LtzS Marine    Sdr-Kdo (Sonderkommando Usedom) - attend special forces in Turkey and in the immediate aftermath of the Dardanelles Orhaniye the commander of the troops - Kommand at Kumkale (Fort Orhanié) 5Bty/2Bn 5th Ottoman Agir Heavy (Fortress) Artillery Regt at Dardanelles - Coastal Artillery - Generalinspek. d. Küstenbe-festigungen u. Minenwesen 

Haspi or Hasbi Efendi    Kapt-Lt Marine    SMS Goeben - OC Usedom battery att Ottoman Batteries at Kumkale commander of artillery group at Intepe named "Hasbi Group" 

Haentjens Peter    LtzS (Capt) Marine    SMS Goeben (Yavuz) OC Aleman (88 cm SK battery) att Ottoman Batteries at Kumkale or Intepe Sdr-Kdo (Sonderkommando) - Coastal Artillery
 

Edited 7 August , 2023 by stevenbecker

[martin75]

on September 7, 1914, the German sailors of the Sonderkommando were distributed as follows:

- battery Ertugrul  :  Kapitänleutnant Frege and 14 non-commissioned officers and men

- battery Dardanos  :  9 non-commissioned officers and men

- Anadolu Hamidiye  :  Kapitänleutnant Herschell and 48 non-commissioned officers and men

- fort Kilitbahir  :  Leutnant zur See Natz and 2 men

- Rumeli Mecidiye  :  19 non-commissioned officers and men

- Rumeli Hamidiye  :  11 non-commissioned officers and men

- Namazgah  :  9 non-commissioned officers and men

thus no German personnel in the fort of Seddülbahir

thereafter, the German sailors will be grouped within the battery Anadolu Hamidiye ; a small detachment will be sent to the Orhaniye battery under the command of Leutnant zur See Woermann just before February 19, 1915

[KizmeRD]

Thank you Steven and Matin for the information posted on the distribution of German sailors with the Ottoman coastal artillery batteries.

MB

[michaeldr]

18 hours ago, michaeldr said:

The four 87mm QF (sometimes given as 8.8cm) where almost certainly placed on the lower terrace facing directly across the Dardanelles.

NB: I was probably mistaken in the above

'Rus Donanma Raporu Işiğinda 1903-1915 Yillari Arasinda Çanakkale Boğaz'nin Savunma Sistemi'
[Defence system of the Dardanelles Strait between the years 1903-1915 in the light of the Russian Navy Report]
This article appears in the Turkish magazine 'Anafarta' [issue of Autumn 2021] – see pages 93>
and includes the sketch map seen below.
The key at the top may indicate the individual placement of the various Krupp L/22 guns, however the illustration is too small and indistinct for me to make out such precise details.

What the sketch map does appear to indicate however, is that the placement of the 4 smaller guns was not on the lower terrace as I had thought previously, 
but rather they seem to be positioned in the south-west corner.

Regrettably, I have not been able so far, to determine the date of this Russian intelligence sketch and while it is very unlikely that the Krupp L/22 guns were moved, the same does not apply to the four smaller 87mm

Edited 7 August , 2023 by michaeldr

[martin75]

I managed to decipher the identification of the guns on the sketch, 5 guns are noted 28 cm ; for the more westerly one, it is indicated 21 cm. British intelligence gives the armement of Seddülbahir as 6 x 28 cm L/22 and russian intelligence as 5 x 28 cm and 1 x 21 cm (see  ÇANAKKALE BOĞAZI (BAHR-Ġ SEFĠD BOĞAZI) SAVUNMA SĠSTEMĠ 1770-1918 by Salih Murad Hatip   ;   the attached document is taken from this doctoral thesis) 

[michaeldr]

47 minutes ago, martin75 said:

British intelligence gives the armement of Seddülbahir as 6 x 28 cm L/22

I wonder who the spy was in 1889?

[michaeldr]

Here is another interesting view of Sedd el Bahr, this time from inside the fort and taken before 3 November 1914. Five of the six Krupp L/22 guns can be seen. Again the photograph was published in the magazine 'Anafarta' [issue Summer 2019] in an article by Serif Korkmaz (page 95>)

Edited 7 August , 2023 by michaeldr
correction to date

[martin75]

Another plan of Seddülbahir