Sleeve Badge (poss. Horse Related)

[4thGordons]

Sorting through a small selection of insignia and cap badges I just bought some of which appear to be genuine WWI others probably restrikes, all are quite tarnished - at the bottom of the box I found this.

It appears to show some sort of horse harness with a laurel wreath? but it is not a badge with which I am familiar.  4 loop fixing seems to suggest it is a sleeve badge.

Front (probably upside down?)

Back

The other badges were British or Canadian.

TIA

Chris

[henryww1]

TRADE PROFICIENCY BADGE FOR A SADDLE/HARNESS MAKER.

[4thGordons]

9 minutes ago, henryww1 said:

TRADE PROFICIENCY BADGE FOR A SADDLE/HARNESS MAKER.

Thanks very much! and of course it is a chain not laurel wreath! (apologies)

Chris

[henryww1]

My pleasure 

[Matlock1418]

 

1 hour ago, 4thGordons said:

It appears to show some sort of horse harness with a laurel wreath? but it is not a badge with which I am familiar.  4 loop fixing seems to suggest it is a sleeve badge.

Front (probably upside down?)

Looks quite symbolic and like a horse bit with a high port [I reckon it's seen upside down above]

Now rotated.

Potentially a more US/Western style, rather than a British, type of bit I think [though I probably should have let more expert equestrians comment on that!].

M

Edited 31 July , 2023 by Matlock1418
rotated image

[FROGSMILE]

On 31/07/2023 at 23:59, Matlock1418 said:

 

Looks quite symbolic and like a horse bit with a high port [I reckon it's seen upside down above]

Now rotated.

Potentially a more US/Western style, rather than a British, type of bit I think [though I probably should have let more expert equestrians comment on that!].

M

It’s an old [edit] British Army universal pattern horse bit from 1885 and most decidedly very British.

Originally a badge for RA and ASC it wasn’t until 1923 that the cavalry were specified as eligible.

The trade was originally for ‘Collar Maker’ (which matches entirely with the earliest two corps to use it), but subsequently had added Saddler, Saddletree Maker and Harness Maker.

 

Edited 2 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

44 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s an old universal pattern horse bit from 1885 and most decidedly very British.

Agreed the British did/do have such styles of bit. And of course bit styles could readily cross the Atlantic

However I seem to have the impression that the use of that type with a very high port was favoured in the US/Western riding [and given its apparent finding provenance in N America??]. 

Used for well trained horses I think. So perhaps in the British and/or US military too??

What nationality do you think/know the badge is?

M

Edited 1 August , 2023 by Matlock1418

[4thGordons]

7 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

What nationality do you think/know the badge is?

M

Based on Henryww1 's comment I took it to be British. A quick google search of "trade proficiency badge harness maker" showed a good number of images including much more recent cloth versions. I assume Canada would have used the same badge?

Chris

[Matlock1418]

Just now, 4thGordons said:

Based on Henryww1 's comment I took it to be British. A quick google search of "trade proficiency badge harness maker" showed a good number of images including much more recent cloth versions. I assume Canada would have used the same badge?

I missed your inital mention of Canadian badges, and have just found it/as you posted - but would agree/think it quite likely Canada would follow the British style of badge [and bit]

FS has also earlier mentioned RA & ASC so a US badge would now seem likely ruled out.

An interesting find.

M

[FROGSMILE]

45 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Agreed the British did/do have such styles of bit. And of course bit styles could readily cross the Atlantic

However I seem to have the impression that the use of that type with a very high port was favoured in the US/Western riding [and given its apparent finding provenance in N America??]. 

Used for well trained horses I think. So perhaps in the British and/or US military too??

What nationality do you think/know the badge is?

M

It’s the British Army trade badge for the trades that I listed.  My post was overall referring to the subject of the thread, the badge whose image was posted.

The trade and skill-at-arms badges were for the WW1 period used by all of the old Dominions armed forces (AIF, CEF, NZEF, SAOEF) that for administrative and functional command purposes, were integrated elements of the deployed British Armies in the field, forming Corps, Divisions and Brigades within them.  Ergo leather work tradesmen would recognise each other’s badges because they were the same.

Edited 1 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

39 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s the British Army trade badge for the trades that I listed.  My post was overall referring to the subject of the thread, the badge whose image was posted.

The trade and skill-at-arms badges were for the WW1 period used by all of the old Dominions armed forces (AIF, CEF, NZEF, SAOEF) that for administrative and functional command purposes, were integrated elements of the deployed British Armies in the field, forming Corps, Divisions and Brigades within them.  Ergo leather work tradesmen would recognise each other’s badges because they were the same.

That's fine, I appreciate your reply - thank you for your input.

I try to learn something new every day - harder to remember it all these days though. 

M

[FROGSMILE]

52 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

That's fine, I appreciate your reply - thank you for your input.

I try to learn something new every day - harder to remember it all these days though. 

M

I’m glad to help, it’s often forgotten nowadays just what a unified British Army it was regardless of national sensibilities, in which I include e.g. Scots, Irish, Welsh, and not just ANZACs, Canucks, and men of the Veldt.  At the time there were no standing regular armies for any of the latter.

Edited 1 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m glad to help, it’s often forgotten nowadays just what a unified British Army it was regardless of national sensibilities in which I include e.g. Scots, Irish, Welsh, and not just ANZACs, Canucks, and men of the Veldt.  At the time there were no standing regular armies for any of the latter.

Yes. But I think the pay levels were a bit different - I think with British Tommies [E, W, S & I regimental/corps soldiers] looking rather enviously at / would have appreciated the pay levels of the dominions = Have I got that right?

M

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Yes. But I think the pay levels were a bit different - I think with British Tommies [E, W, S & I regimental/corps soldiers] looking rather enviously at / would have appreciated the pay levels of the dominions = Have I got that right?

M

Yes, each government paid its own soldiers and to some extent (although it varied) supplied clothing and arms too.  Where things were supplied by the British government the cost was recompensed under formal arrangement.  It was a good time for accountants and bureaucrats, not to mention industrialists and profiteers.

Edited 1 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

Thanks FS 

Not forgetting pension arangements too.

Plenty of fiscal activity post-war too!

M

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

19 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

Thanks very much! and of course it is a chain not laurel wreath! (apologies)

Chris

Although the image posted by Frogsmile does have a chain, I'd say that the 'laurel wreath' in your image represents a braided leather bit of the  horse's bridle/harness/halter/lead rope.

Edited 1 August , 2023 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Although the image posted by Frogsmile does have a chain, I'd say that the 'laurel wreath' in your image represents a braided leather bit of the  horse's bridle/harness/halter/lead rope.

It’s meant to be the curb chain Dai and consistently a part of the military issue bit.  Some were double link (with larger loops) and others a more plaited design.

Edited 1 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Thank you Mr F.