Cap insignia of Rifle regiment warrant officer

[FROGSMILE]

Enclosed are some images of an unknown warrant officer from either, KRRC, or 6th London Regiment (City of London Rifles).  If before July 1915 then he’s a warrant officer of single grade as sergeant major of battalion.  If after that date then he must be a warrant officer of the new second class and appointed as company sergeant major.  Intriguingly he’s had his jacket tailored to have a higher than usual collar and scalloped pocket flaps usually marking someone out as of visually higher status.  However, if one of the former then his headdress badge should be a cherry coloured rope boss as was traditional for most rifle regiments and rifle volunteer units.  Can forum members such as @stiletto_33853 and @MBrockway comment to throw any possible light on this please?   I suppose the most likely scenario is that he only holds acting and not substantive rank, but that doesn’t chime with his carefully tailored jacket.

Edited 30 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

With three Overseas chevrons up, your chap is later than July 1915 , so he's a WO II.  If before AO 309 1918, he could be RQMS, but I'm confident he's a CSM - read on ...

 

In general the rule was cherry for WO Is and *probably* the RQMS, with standard Maltese cross cap badge for WO IIs and below.

Post AO 70 and AO 174 of 1915 ...

RSM - WO I, Royal Arms on lower sleeve, wore cherry and Sam Browne.  Usually wore well tailored jacket with scalloped pocket flaps.

RSM Tedder, 1/KRRC, 1919

Pic courtesy of Pal Drew-1918

 

Bandmaster - WO I, Lyre badge on lower sleeve, cherry, Sam Browne.  Well tailored as per RSM.

BM Brown, 1/KRRC, 1919

Pic courtesy of Pal Drew-1918

 

CSM - WO II, Crown on lower sleeve, Maltese Cross cap badge, no Sam Browne.

CSM on left, RSM on right, date ~1919.  The difference is quality of tailoring is well seen here.  Note the RSM is not wearing his Sam Browne.

Pic courtesy of Pal Richard Dixon

 

RQMS - WO II, [until AO 309 1918] Crown on lower sleeve [after AO 309 1918] Crown in wreath, *probably* wore cherry

The fly in the ointment is the RQMS.  In AO 70, RQMS was made WO II, so one might expect the standard Maltese cross cap badge.  However this chap from a 1919 picture of 1/KRRC *could* show an RQMS's Crown in wreath in the cuff detail, yet despite not being WO I, he is still wearing the cherry. 

1/KRRC, 1919

 

Pic courtesy of Pal Drew-1918

Technically RQMS was next in seniority after the two WO Is and the post pre-dates the change from eight companies to four that generated the new CSM and CQMS posts, so the pre-1913 rule *might* have been cherry for the RSM, BM and RQMS.  One possibility may be the honour of wearing the cherry went with the Appointment of RQMS rather than the WO II rank of its holder.  Similar perhaps to the very ornate dress of the Bugle Major, regardless of the rank/seniority of the holder of that Appointment.  Identifiable KRRC RQMS Service Dress photos are somewhat difficult to find, nor can I find anything in regimental Standing Orders/Dress Regs on the matter, so I have as yet been unable to resolve this question .

I have a 2/KRRC Sergeants' Mess photograph from late 1925 in which the RQMS is definitely wearing the cherry, but so too are all the CSMs, so regimental practice may have changed by then.

 

Since all the photos above are from 1919, I thought I'd also post this interesting mid-war group "Somewhere in France" I sourced from yourself, that shows RSM, 2 x CSM, 1 x CSgt (*probably* - crown over chevron not 100% identifiable), with the chap back left rank obscured.  The cap badge of the CSM front left is hard to see, but I think we can be confident it the Maltese cross.  Note also the Sam Browne and tailored collar of the RSM, though no scallops seen.

Pic courtesy of Pal Frogsmile

It's a great photo and one day I'll crack the identity of the RSM and thus the battalion, but that's a backburner project I'm afraid!

HTH

Mark

 

Edited 30 July , 2023 by MBrockway
Removed an orphaned image

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, MBrockway said:

With three Overseas chevrons up, your chap is later than July 1915 , so he's a WO II.  If before AO 309 1918, he could be RQMS, but I'm confident he's a CSM - read on ...

 

In general the rule was cherry for WO Is and *probably* the RQMS, with standard Maltese cross cap badge for WO IIs and below.

Post AO 70 and AO 174 of 1915 ...

RSM - WO I, Royal Arms on lower sleeve, wore cherry and Sam Browne.  Usually wore well tailored jacket with scalloped pocket flaps.

RSM Tedder, 1/KRRC, 1919

Pic courtesy of Pal Drew-1918

 

Bandmaster - WO I, Lyre badge on lower sleeve, cherry, Sam Browne.  Well tailored as per RSM.

BM Brown, 1/KRRC, 1919

Pic courtesy of Pal Drew-1918

 

CSM - WO II, Crown on lower sleeve, Maltese Cross cap badge, no Sam Browne.

CSM on left, RSM on right, date ~1919.  The difference is quality of tailoring is well seen here.  Note the RSM is not wearing his Sam Browne.

Pic courtesy of Pal Richard Dixon

 

RQMS - WO II, [until AO 309 1918] Crown on lower sleeve [after AO 309 1918] Crown in wreath, *probably* wore cherry

The fly in the ointment is the RQMS.  In AO 70, RQMS was made WO II, so one might expect the standard Maltese cross cap badge.  However this chap from a 1919 picture of 1/KRRC *could* show an RQMS's Crown in wreath in the cuff detail, yet despite not being WO I, he is still wearing the cherry. 

1/KRRC, 1919

 

Pic courtesy of Pal Drew-1918

Technically RQMS was next in seniority after the two WO Is and the post pre-dates the change from eight companies to four that generated the new CSM and CQMS posts, so the pre-1913 rule *might* have been cherry for the RSM, BM and RQMS.  One possibility may be the honour of wearing the cherry went with the Appointment of RQMS rather than the WO II rank of its holder.  Similar perhaps to the very ornate dress of the Bugle Major, regardless of the rank/seniority of the holder of that Appointment.  Identifiable KRRC RQMS Service Dress photos are somewhat difficult to find, nor can I find anything in regimental Standing Orders/Dress Regs on the matter, so I have as yet been unable to resolve this question .

I have a 2/KRRC Sergeants' Mess photograph from late 1925 in which the RQMS is definitely wearing the cherry, but so too are all the CSMs, so regimental practice may have changed by then.

 

Since all the photos above are from 1919, I thought I'd also post this interesting mid-war group "Somewhere in France" I sourced from yourself, that shows RSM, 2 x CSM, 1 x CSgt (*probably* - crown over chevron not 100% identifiable), with the chap back left rank obscured.  The cap badge of the CSM front left is hard to see, but I think we can be confident it the Maltese cross.  Note also the Sam Browne and tailored collar of the RSM, though no scallops seen.

Pic courtesy of Pal Frogsmile

It's a great photo and one day I'll crack the identity of the RSM and thus the battalion, but that's a backburner project I'm afraid!

HTH

Mark

Thank you for your excellent, comprehensive reply Mark.  I concur with everything that you have said and am kicking myself for not thinking through the implications of the presence of the overseas chevrons and thus answering at least part of my own question.  Late at night and trying to do too many things at once!  As regards the RQMS conundrum, I believe that I can answer that.  There were only two staff sergeants on the battalion HQ staff that dressed in uniform and appointments superior to those that they were entitled to by rank.  Both were second class staff sergeants who had been permitted the privilege to dress as first class staff sergeants, one the music major (bugle major in KRRC case) and the other the musketry instructor.

The QMS (RQMS) had since inception always held an appointment second only to the sergeant major of battalion and, most critically to note historically, in the early years of concurrent existence the two had been dressed almost identically, even down to both wearing four bar silver lace chevrons point down on the upper arm.  Indeed both men were among the six original and formally established battalion headquarters staff, as at 1811.  The QMS was also always both, deputy, and stand-in for the SM.

It was only in 1881 (when the SM became a warrant officer) that the dress of these two most senior men gained significantly greater differential and so I’ve no doubt that the cherry rope boss badge would have been an entitlement for the QMS from its (the badges) earliest introduction to the battalion staff.  I think he would have retained it when made a WOII by virtue of his historically high status, longevity of existence, and logistical importance (this was further recognised when along with the other senior QMS across the Army he was given a different and demonstrably more elaborate badge to the other WOII in 1918).

Thank you again for your helpful analysis and reminder of KRRC protocols, I agree that we can safely say that the man in the photograph is a WOII CSM.

    1. sergeant major (1798 *)

    2. quarter-master sergeant (1787)

    3. pay-sergeant (1787)

    4. school-master-sergeant (1811)

    5. armourer-sergeant (1802 #)

    6. drum-major (1810 ¥)

* but existed unofficially since before that via appointing a senior sergeant.

# but existed previously unofficially as an optional and directly employed artisan by the colonel in command of the battalion.

¥ again existed previously by expedient appointment of a senior drummer.

Edited 31 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

On 30/07/2023 at 19:13, FROGSMILE said:

Enclosed are some images of an unknown warrant officer from either, KRRC, or 6th London Regiment (City of London Rifles).  If before July 1915 then he’s a warrant officer of single grade as sergeant major of battalion.  If after that date then he must be a warrant officer of the new second class and appointed as company sergeant major.  Intriguingly he’s had his jacket tailored to have a higher than usual collar and scalloped pocket flaps usually marking someone out as of visually higher status.  However, if one of the former then his headdress badge should be a cherry coloured rope boss as was traditional for most rifle regiments and rifle volunteer units.  Can forum members such as @stiletto_33853 and @MBrockway comment to throw any possible light on this please?   I suppose the most likely scenario is that he only holds acting and not substantive rank, but that doesn’t chime with his carefully tailored jacket.

The photo is from no earlier than September 1919.     Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

The photo is from no earlier than September 1919.     Pete.

Yes the medal ribbons are significant aren’t they.  Thank you.

[MBrockway]

I've been thinking about this further overnight and I need to revise my position.

I don't have many Sergeants' Mess group photographs, but several of them have more than three WOs wearing the cherry corded boss.

It looks like several of the other HQ Wing staff sergeant Appointments may also have worn the cherry.  Certainly the ORS is an obvious candidate.

In the county regiments pre-war, I understand that around eight or so of the senior sergeants were entitled to wear the higher quality Staff First Class tunic.  I understand from David Langley, these would typically include (with their Great War equivalent rank/appointment):

1. Sergeant-Major (RSM)
2. Bandmaster
3. Quarter-Master-Sergeant (RQMS)
4. Orderly-Room-Sergeant, who was technically also a quarter-master-sergeant (ORS or ORQMS)
5. Colour-Sergeant-Instructor of Musketry (CSMIM)
6. Drum-Sergeant (colloquially known as drum major) [in KRRC this would be the Sergeant-Bugler, aka 'bugle major')
7. Band Sergeant
8. Pioneer Sergeant

David added that practice varied between regiments according to the varied regimental traditions, but consistently included #1, #2, #3, #4 and then up to 4 from the rest.  Of the pre-war HQ staff sergeants that only leaves the Armourer Sergeant, the Band Sergeant, the OR Clerk, the Officers' Mess Sergeant, and the various trade specialists (cook, tailor, shoemaker, etc.).  The armourer was I think attached from the AOC, so not regimentally cap badged.

I speculate that the wearing of the cherry corded boss in the KRRC followed a similar pattern to the wearing of the Staff First Class tunic in the redcoat county regiments.

The 1925 2/KRRC Serjeants' Mess group photo has twelve men wearing the cherry. 

Five of these are officers: the CO, 2 i/c, Adjutant, Quartermaster and one other I haven't yet identified.  They are all wearing Sam Browne belts and open neck jackets with ties.

Of the remaining seven, two are wearing Sam Browne belts and they are definitely the RSM and Bandmaster, both very well known regimental faces.

Of the other five, one is definitely the RQMS as his crown in wreath badge is clearly discernible.  Three of the other four have WO II crown badges clearly visible and no other helpful badges, while the fourth has both his lower sleeves obscured, but has no chevrons on his upper sleeve.

I have a 1919 1/KRRC Sergeants' Mess informal photo, where the Bugle Major (technically the Sergeant-Bugler) is identifiable from his lower sleeve badge of four chevrons surmounted by two intertwined bugles.  He is wearing the Maltese cross, not the cherry.

In summary, the KRRC's tradition is clearly more complex than I outlined above, though your chap is still definitely a WO II CSM.

I understand you and David had quite an extensive correspondence on the redcoat Staff First Class tunic - do you think the traditions for that may be analogous to what we see in the use of the cherry corded boss in the 60th?  I'd love to get this bottomed out

Mark

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, MBrockway said:

I've been thinking about this further overnight and I need to revise my position.

I don't have many Sergeants' Mess group photographs, but several of them have more than three WOs wearing the cherry corded boss.

It looks like several of the other HQ Wing staff sergeant Appointments may also have worn the cherry.  Certainly the ORS is an obvious candidate.

In the county regiments pre-war, I understand that around eight or so of the senior sergeants were entitled to wear the higher quality Staff First Class tunic.  I understand from David Langley, these would typically include (with their Great War equivalent rank/appointment):

1. Sergeant-Major (RSM)
2. Bandmaster
3. Quarter-Master-Sergeant (RQMS)
4. Orderly-Room-Sergeant, who was technically also a quarter-master-sergeant (ORS or ORQMS)
5. Colour-Sergeant-Instructor of Musketry (CSMIM)
6. Drum-Sergeant (colloquially known as drum major) [in KRRC this would be the Sergeant-Bugler, aka 'bugle major')
7. Band Sergeant
8. Pioneer Sergeant

David added that practice varied between regiments according to the varied regimental traditions, but consistently included #1, #2, #3, #4 and then up to 4 from the rest.  Of the pre-war HQ staff sergeants that only leaves the Armourer Sergeant, the Band Sergeant, the OR Clerk, the Officers' Mess Sergeant, and the various trade specialists (cook, tailor, shoemaker, etc.).  The armourer was I think attached from the AOC, so not regimentally cap badged.

I speculate that the wearing of the cherry corded boss in the KRRC followed a similar pattern to the wearing of the Staff First Class tunic in the redcoat county regiments.

The 1925 2/KRRC Serjeants' Mess group photo has twelve men wearing the cherry. 

Five of these are officers: the CO, 2 i/c, Adjutant, Quartermaster and one other I haven't yet identified.  They are all wearing Sam Browne belts and open neck jackets with ties.

Of the remaining seven, two are wearing Sam Browne belts and they are definitely the RSM and Bandmaster, both very well known regimental faces.

Of the other five, one is definitely the RQMS as his crown in wreath badge is clearly discernible.  Three of the other four have WO II crown badges clearly visible and no other helpful badges, while the fourth has both his lower sleeves obscured, but has no chevrons on his upper sleeve.

I have a 1919 1/KRRC Sergeants' Mess informal photo, where the Bugle Major (technically the Sergeant-Bugler) is identifiable from his lower sleeve badge of four chevrons surmounted by two intertwined bugles.  He is wearing the Maltese cross, not the cherry.

In summary, the KRRC's tradition is clearly more complex than I outlined above, though your chap is still definitely a WO II CSM.

I understand you and David had quite an extensive correspondence on the redcoat Staff First Class tunic - do you think the traditions for that may be analogous to what we see in the use of the cherry corded boss in the 60th?  I'd love to get this bottomed out

Mark

I recall the photos that you have described very well, as we discussed them specifically in connection with the cherry rope bosses at the time, plus in particular the bandmaster if I recall correctly.  Also the final photo you mention of four KRRC seniors that I posted.

In answer to your question about the first class (quality) scarlet tunics, yes I do think that they would be a similar indicator of the battalion HQ staff appointees who would wear special cap insignia that links them with officers.  The direct equivalent tunic in Rifle regiments is that tunic similar to an officers pattern and fitted with five rows of horizontal round cords, loops and drops, fastened with olivettes.

However, just as with the scarlet clad regiments the two second class staff sergeants of the battalion HQ group, i.e. the Bugle Major and the Colour Sergeant Instructor of Musketry, did traditionally wear the first class rifles tunic as a special privilege marking their important status.  From what you’ve said they do not appear to have worn the cherry boss badge though, so that seems to have been a privilege denied them because they were not truly first class staff and the cap itself was an undress item and thus not included in the special privileges.

In conclusion this suggests that to wear the cherry boss badge an individual must be both, a senior - first class - staff sergeant by rank and appointment (unlike e.g. the Bugle Major) PLUS employed above company level (unlike a WOII CSM).  

Edited 1 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

Much of interest there - many thanks.

Am I correct in thinking Colour-Sergeant-Instructor in Musketry would be identifiable by crown over crossed rifles over inverted (point down) chevrons (x3) on upper sleeve?

Edited 1 August , 2023 by MBrockway
chevron direction less ambiguous

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, MBrockway said:

Much of interest there - many thanks.

Am I correct in thinking Colour-Sergeant-Instructor in Musketry would be identifiable by crown over crossed rifles over inverted chevrons (x3) on upper sleeve?

Yes Mark, but for the first time the smaller crown and crossed rifles were conjoined into one worsted wool cloth badge for drab SD.  That change seems to have been made at the same time as the appointment’s title changed to incorporate ‘colour sergeant’.  The conjoined badge was of course already common in bullion wire.

NB.  Not “inverted” chevrons though, that arrangement had been unique to the Rifle Volunteer units of the auxiliary forces.  For regulars it was three chevrons point down.

Edited 1 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

The man in the 1925 2/KRRC sergeants' photo sporting the cherry and whose lower sleeves are obscured, has no badges at all on his upper sleeve.  Aside from the Bandmaster, whose face is a very well known to me, the rest all have clear badges on their lower sleeves - RSM, RQMS and WO II crown (x3), so perhaps we can eliminate the Colour Sergeant Instructor in Musketry Appointment from those who wore the cherry.

But ....

 ... adding to the subtleties, I note that 2/KRRC's HQ Wing nominal roll lists the holder, W. Pretty, as "Sergt.-Instr. of Musketry" and in the extensive btn reports on rifle meetings in the Chronicle he is referred to as "Sergeant" throughout.  In other words, he was an NCO, not a WO.

Again, am I right in thinking a Sergeant Instructor in Musketry would wear crossed rifles over inverted (point down) chevrons (x3) and without the crown?

i.e. like this ...

Pic courtesy of Pal Richard Dixon

Also in an infantry battalion was there just a single SNCO responsible for Instruction in Musketry or were there SNCOs delivering musketry instruction at company level?  Various KRRC rolls use the terms Colour Sergeant Instructor in/of Musketry, and Sergeant Instructor of/in Musketry, but always one per battalion.  I assume the difference is due to the rank of the holder of the appointment with the former term used when held by a Staff/Colour Sergeant and the latter a Sergeant.

I've also seen C.S.M. Instructor in Musketry.  I assume this expands to Company Sergeant Major Instructor in Musketry and points to the holder being a WO II?

These rank vs appointment conundrums are intriguing!

 

 

 

Edited 1 August , 2023 by MBrockway
Less ambiguous chevron direction description

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

The man in the 1925 2/KRRC sergeants' photo sporting the cherry and whose lower sleeves are obscured, has no badges at all on his upper sleeve.  Aside from the Bandmaster, whose face is a very well known to me, the rest all have clear badges on their lower sleeves - RSM, RQMS and WO II crown (x3), so perhaps we can eliminate the Colour Sergeant Instructor in Musketry Appointment from those who wore the cherry.

But ....

 ... adding to the subtleties, I note that 2/KRRC's HQ Wing nominal roll lists the holder, W. Pretty, as "Sergt.-Instr. of Musketry" and in the extensive btn reports on rifle meetings in the Chronicle he is referred to as "Sergeant" throughout.  In other words, he was an NCO, not a WO.

Again, am I right in thinking a Sergeant Instructor in Musketry would wear crossed rifles over inverted chevrons (x3) and without the crown?

i.e. like this ...

Pic courtesy of Pal Richard Dixon

Also in an infantry battalion was there just a single SNCO responsible for Instruction in Musketry or were there SNCOs delivering musketry instruction at company level?  Various KRRC rolls use the terms Colour Sergeant Instructor in/of Musketry, and Sergeant Instructor of/in Musketry, but always one per battalion.  I assume the difference is due to the rank of the holder of the appointment with the former term used when held by a Staff/Colour Sergeant and the latter a Sergeant.

I've also seen C.S.M. Instructor in Musketry.  I assume this expands to Company Sergeant Major Instructor in Musketry and points to the holder being a WO II?

These rank vs appointment conundrums are intriguing!

 

 

 

The answer is yes to all those questions Mark.  There was just one man with that responsibility at battalion HQ level.  He was originally a sergeant in rank, but inclusion among the battalion headquarters staff made him in collective terms a staff sergeant, and he received enhanced pay for his responsibilities.  He had to be trained and certificated at Hythe (along with the battalion adjutant).

At some point after the Boer War his rank was raised to colour sergeant and later still there were CSMIs, as you have mentioned, but they were usually at schools of musketry (closer to WW2).  Regardless of rank the role was the same, to deliver training that was usually planned by the battalion 2IC (the training planner) advised by the Adjutant (the musketry theorist).  The SNCO instructor concerned then carried out the training, assisted by fellow instructors and or qualified NCO marksmen from within the companies themselves.

I think you’re right that neither, bugle major, nor musketry instructor wore the cherry boss badge on undress headwear for the reasons we’ve already covered. 

Edited 1 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

Thanks - that's clarified a lot.

Returning to the cherry corded boss, I've been considering traditions/distinctions in other regiments and the RWF's 'flash' came to mind.  If I remember correctly the right to wear the flash was at this time restricted to officers, WOs and senior NCOs, only being extended to the whole regiment in the 1920s.

I'm hoping David or yourself may have some detailed RWF material that clearly defines who was allowed the distinction and that RWF practice may be an analogy to that of the 60th? 

Or is this a red herring?

Mark

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

Thanks - that's clarified a lot.

Returning to the cherry corded boss, I've been considering traditions/distinctions in other regiments and the RWF's 'flash' came to mind.  If I remember correctly the right to wear the flash was at this time restricted to officers, WOs and senior NCOs, only being extended to the whole regiment in the 1920s.

I'm hoping David or yourself may have some detailed RWF material that clearly defines who was allowed the distinction and that RWF practice may be an analogy to that of the 60th? 

Or is this a red herring?

Mark

No it’s not a red herring.  It has been misquoted sometimes subsequenty as officers and SNCOs, but the original detail was officers, WOs and staff sergeants (meaning headquarters staff), so yes it’s indeed an exact equivalent to the cherry boss badge as a regimental dress distinction of that time. 

Edited 1 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

Deleted - off topic

Edited 1 August , 2023 by MBrockway
Deletion mutually agreed

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

I've used it the other way around ever since I had my knuckles rapped on the matter by David Langley here on the Forum way back!    but perhaps the less ambiguous choice is to simply say 'point up' or 'point down' and I may go that way in future.

Grumpy explained that in heraldry chevrons had their point facing upwards - a chevron proper.  When the chevron points downwards, it is described as inverted.  So the NCO badges of the British Army are inverted, those of the US Army, as well as British overseas chevrons and GC badges are not.

 

Yes he’s correct and with the exception of overseas service qualifications I usually refer to inverted stripes or point up point down but quoted you directly in this case.

The reference to the Flash below is from regimental standing orders (2 Vols) 1910 and 1913.

Of the two volumes it struck me that the one for 1913 was close to identical to the iteration extant when I joined the 1st Battalion.  Interestingly the spelling was Welch within the regiment as shown in this example of the pre WW1 standing orders.

Edited 1 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

Deleted - off topic

Edited 1 August , 2023 by MBrockway
Deletion mutually agreed

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

So what you quoted from me was correct too? i.e. a Sergeant Instructor in Musketry would wear crossed rifles over inverted [= point down] chevrons (x3) and without the crown.

If so then we're on the same page and I'll go back and delete my posts on this aspect and edit the rest to use the much clearer 'point up'/'point down'

Yes, I was reading your inverted as literally in relation to the more normal point down.  No confusion intended Mark.

[MBrockway]

Regrettably I have no copies of the KRRC Standing Orders, only some for the Rifle Brigade, who of course did not wear the cherry!  Nor did the RB have any similar distinctions reserved to the HQ staff sergeants.  The only tradition in common is the Sam Browne belts and better quality SD jackets for the WO Is.

This topic of yours has spurred me into doing something I've had in mind for some time:  a cross referencing of my sergeants' mess group photos with their corresponding battalion nominal rolls and strength lists.

Counting the cord boss badges and tailored jackets and comparing with WO/staff sergeants on the rolls will certainly give us stronger data.

I am away from home now though until the weekend, so I'll be going off the air at least until then.

Cheers,

Mark

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

Regrettably I have no copies of the KRRC Standing Orders, only some for the Rifle Brigade, who of course did not wear the cherry!  Nor did the RB have any similar distinctions reserved to the HQ staff sergeants.  The only tradition in common is the Sam Browne belts and better quality SD jackets for the WO Is.

This topic of yours has spurred me into doing something I've had in mind for some time:  a cross referencing of my sergeants' mess group photos with their corresponding battalion nominal rolls and strength lists.

Counting the cord boss badges and tailored jackets and comparing with WO/staff sergeants on the rolls will certainly give us stronger data.

I am away from home now though until the weekend, so I'll be going off the air at least until then.

Cheers,

Mark

I will be very pleased to assist you with any analysis of photos if you think it will be helpful Mark.