Exemptions from conscription in Germany and France???

[FrancesH]

I have been looking at the existing threads on conscription on GWF and would just like this one point clarified. According to a Wikipedia entry (yes, I know, that's why I'm looking for something more solid) Germany granted exemptions to men required for work of national importance, France did not, and as far as I can see although the Wikipedia entry didn't mention it, neither country granted them on grounds of conscience. I haven't been able to find anything else. Can anyone (1) confirm that the info on exemptions is as given above and (2) that neither country granted exemptions on grounds of conscience? Can anyone sort this out for me? Many thanks.

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, FrancesH said:

I have been looking at the existing threads on conscription on GWF and would just like this one point clarified. According to a Wikipedia entry (yes, I know, that's why I'm looking for something more solid) Germany granted exemptions to men required for work of national importance, France did not, and as far as I can see although the Wikipedia entry didn't mention it, neither country granted them on grounds of conscience. I haven't been able to find anything else. Can anyone (1) confirm that the info on exemptions is as given above and (2) that neither country granted exemptions on grounds of conscience? Can anyone sort this out for me? Many thanks.

The best people to answer this are I think forum colleagues @GreyC and @AOK4.

[FrancesH]

Hi Frogsmile, I hope to hear from them soon, otherwise I'll DM them. Many thanks, hope all is well with you.

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, FrancesH said:

Hi Frogsmile, I hope to hear from them soon, otherwise I'll DM them. Many thanks, hope all is well with you.

All’s well thank you.  They are both highly knowledgeable and helpful and it’s probable that they’ll be able to help, they both tend to visit the forum quite frequently. @charlie2 might know something about it too.

Edited 30 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[charlie2]

Article 57 of the 1871 German Constitution https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Verfassung_des_Deutschen_Reichs_(1871) States:

„Jeder Deutsche ist wehrpflichtig and kann sich in Ausübung dieser Pflicht nicht vertreten lassen“

„Every German is liable to military service and may not be substituted in the performance of this duty.“

There is no provision in the constitution for a person to be exempted.

Charlie

[charlie2]

Germany did exempt men from military service to work on work of national importance. This article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenburg_Programme#See_also agrees with the German Official History volumes 11 and 12, regarding the numbers either held back or returned from the front to work in industry.

https://digi.landesbibliothek.at/viewer/image/AC01859984/52/LOG_0037/

https://digi.landesbibliothek.at/viewer/image/AC01860055/30/

Charlie

[GreyC]

Well, article 57 of the Verfassung only states principles, not the "whole truth". This is laid down in the Wehrgesetz, renewed and altered a couple of times during the years before and after 1871. It states in the 1888 version, that was valid till 1918, that there were some people exempt from conscription, namely the families of the reigning houses of the German states and some other aristocratic families who were granted the same privilege due to treaties in which their relationship with the German Reich were laid down.

And then there were the roman-catholic priests, who were exempt from the Wehrdienst during peacetime (Gesetz, betreffend die Wehrpflicht der Geistlichen. Vom 8. Februar 1890).

People in Germany who were consciencious objectors were able to serve in so called Arbeiter-Kompanien, which were building military infrastructure.

GreyC

Edited 31 July , 2023 by GreyC

[FrancesH]

Thank you both very much indeed for your prompt and helpful replies. I was particularly interested to see the Germans did have the Arbeiter-Kompanien, which sounds very similar to the Non-Combatant Corps. 

 

Now I just need someone to fill me in on the French forces!

[Hedley Malloch]

Some members of the French aristocracy were prohibited from joining as officers. At least this was the fate of the Duc d'Orleans, one of the many pretenders to the French throne. An ardent patriot, he managed the problem by using his influence to have his butler enrolled as an officer; the Duc was then allowed to join up as an enlisted man as batman to his butler.

[FrancesH]

Hedley, I love that story! Thank you!

 

Still interested to know if there were any options for conscientious objectors in French conscription? My guess is not?

[FrancesH]

On 30/07/2023 at 22:49, GreyC said:

Well, article 57 of the Verfassung only states principles, not the "whole truth". This is laid down in the Wehrgesetz, renewed and altered a couple of times during the years before and after 1871. It states in the 1888 version, that was valid till 1918, that there were some people exempt from conscription, namely the families of the reigning houses of the German states and some other aristocratic families who were granted the same privilege due to treaties in which their relationship with the German Reich were laid down.

And then there were the roman-catholic priests, who were exempt from the Wehrdienst during peacetime (Gesetz, betreffend die Wehrpflicht der Geistlichen. Vom 8. Februar 1890).

People in Germany who were consciencious objectors were able to serve in so called Arbeiter-Kompanien, which were building military infrastructure.

GreyC

Just to clarify -- the conscientious objectors you mention were obviously still willing to work on military infrastructure. A significant problem in Britain was COs who were not willing to do this (absolutists). Do you know if this was a significant problem in Germany at all? Were any COs sent to prison for refusing to join the Arbeiter-Kompanien? 

[GreyC]

I can´t say, I am afraid. All I know is, that the rules, with time progressing, became stricter and the exemptions from the duty to serve less. According to WIKIPEDIA there were 50 Adventists and only a handful of anarchists and intellectuals who refused to serve at all. They were declared insane and got locked away or put into prison.

GreyC

[FrancesH]

Thank you for coming back to me! Since this morning I've found a helpful article summarising the situation for conscription in France with a bibliography of the French sources. 

https://www.bloodyminded.org/conscientious-objection-in-france/

There's also an article on the same site about Germany, which might be of interest as well to anyone else following this topic up in the future:

https://www.bloodyminded.org/conscientious-objection-in-germany/

 

[Mk VII]

We should recall that most European nations had universal peacetime conscription,  and it was seen as something that just happened,  like the weather, and there was nothing you could do about it.   In Germany the army had great prestige,  and doing your service and then passing onto the Reserve,  and eventually the Landwehr, followed by the Landschutz, was normal.  One or two groups, like Moravians, could claim religous exemption,  if they wanted to.  

[GreyC]

1 hour ago, Mk VII said:

Landschutz

Actually it´s Landsturm.

GreyC

[AOK4]

On 01/08/2023 at 17:45, FrancesH said:

There's also an article on the same site about Germany, which might be of interest as well to anyone else following this topic up in the future:

https://www.bloodyminded.org/conscientious-objection-in-germany/

 

Hm, I'm not convinced by this article at all. The fence on the Dutch-Belgian border had nothing to do at all with deserters. The article doesn't mention at all the Armierungstruppen, which were basically unarmed and which is where most "difficult cases" were sent to. 

This sentence "Those originally from Poland, Switzerland, Austria and Hungary returned to their native homelands to avoid supporting a Third Reich." is just BS. A Third Reich? In 1914-1918? Foreign nationals didn't have to serve anyway in the German army and men from Austria-Hungary were allied to Germany an had to serve in their own country. Poland didn't exist (parts were basically either Germany or A-H), although Germany tried to create a Polish vassal state with a kind of army.

There's a lot more remarks to make about the article.

Anyway, I don't have access to my library at the time, but I seem to recall that basically the Armierungstruppen was where those not willing/able to serve where sent to (this involved men with mental issues, quite severe handicaps as well or "unaccepted" political views). If one really didn't want to serve even there, then it was the prison.

Jan

[FrancesH]

Thank you Jan for your comments-- most of what you say I didn't know but yep, the mention of the Third Reich is a bit of a giveaway. Anyone following up the links I gave above should do so with Jan"s comments in mind!

[healdav]

On 31/07/2023 at 13:34, Hedley Malloch said:

Some members of the French aristocracy were prohibited from joining as officers. At least this was the fate of the Duc d'Orleans, one of the many pretenders to the French throne. An ardent patriot, he managed the problem by using his influence to have his butler enrolled as an officer; the Duc was then allowed to join up as an enlisted man as batman to his butler.

To this day, no member of the Bourbon or Bonaparte family is allowed to serve in the French army in any capacity whatsoever.

Pre-1914 those who wanted to to could go and join the German/Austrian/Belgian armies, and some did.

 

[Hedley Malloch]

23 hours ago, Mk VII said:

We should recall that most European nations had universal peacetime conscription,  and it was seen as something that just happened,  like the weather, and there was nothing you could do about it.   In Germany the army had great prestige,  and doing your service and then passing onto the Reserve,  and eventually the Landwehr, followed by the Landschutz, was normal.  One or two groups, like Moravians, could claim religous exemption,  if they wanted to.  

This point is a strong one. Universal peacetime conscription in France and Germany meant that service in the armed forces was seen as a civic obligation, a moral duty. This made it easy for both the French and the Germans to depict volunteer British soldiers as mercenaries.

[FrancesH]

That is a very good point, Hedley, thank you. They would have viewed it completely differently. I imagine that if French or German soldiers knew about the British conscientious objectors they would have viewed them with as much horror as most of their countrymen did! 

5 hours ago, healdav said:

To this day, no member of the Bourbon or Bonaparte family is allowed to serve in the French army in any capacity whatsoever.

Pre-1914 those who wanted to to could go and join the German/Austrian/Belgian armies, and some did.

 

Our equivalent I suppose would be the Stuarts and the Cromwells!

Actually did NOT want those two replies merged but never mind!

[AOK4]

9 hours ago, healdav said:

To this day, no member of the Bourbon or Bonaparte family is allowed to serve in the French army in any capacity whatsoever.

Pre-1914 those who wanted to to could go and join the German/Austrian/Belgian armies, and some did.

 

One Bonaparte was serving in the Canadian army and was taken POW in June 1916.

[FrancesH]

Not conclusive,  though.  I bet there were lots of second cousins back to Corsica. Or someone could have had an ancestor whose name resembled 'Bonaparte' and decided to massage the truth a bit ...

[AOK4]

8 hours ago, FrancesH said:

Not conclusive,  though.  I bet there were lots of second cousins back to Corsica. Or someone could have had an ancestor whose name resembled 'Bonaparte' and decided to massage the truth a bit ...

I assume you are referring to what I said? Bonapartes were allowed to serve in other armies and anyway the man I was referring to had the Canadian nationality, so France had nothing to say about him.

I know of the case because he is mentioned in the diary of a German doctor who treated this Bonaparte as a POW (and he even has a picture of him). I did a bit of research about the Canadian soldier at the time.

Anyway, that's not really related to the subject of this topic.

Jan

[FrancesH]

Hi Jan, no, not at all related to the subject of this thread, which I started, with no idea that French rulers were going to be brought up by other people! Thank you for what I feel is probably the final clarification on this point. The thread was only started to make sure what I said in a footnote was accurate. 

And now back to conscientious objectors -- the British kind! Many thanks to everyone who's posted.