RM Artillery and Zeebrugge raid

[Russ Cox]

Evening all, 

Currently researching my great grandfather's service history in WW1. Struggling to interpret a couple of sections: from his WW2 service record, there is reference to him being included in the Zeebrugge raid. I am now trying to work out which ship he was on at the time of the raid. Relevant sections attached from the service record. Glory III is straight forward enough, but 'Koa Qvo" or similar? Anyone come across this before? 

[Keith_history_buff]

That will be "Hd Qrs". Can you confirm that there is a "Zeebrugge" stamp on the WW1 Royal Marine service record, please? Are you able to share his name, and his number, please?

 domwalsh is not likely to take an interest in this given there is nothing in the Royal Marine record of service to support the assertion that this capable man was present during the Zeebrugge Raid. 

Edited 28 July , 2023 by Keith_history_buff
Should be self-evident, did not want to tag a member unnecessarily

[Russ Cox]

Ah, many thanks @Keith_history_buff. Seems obvious now you point it out.

Relative in question was Albert Charles Ackland and service number was 13451.

Full conduct sheet with ship names etc attached. No obvious Zeebrugge stamp. Only ref to Zeebrugge that I have found so far is his WW2 discharged papers... Also attached 

Thanks in advance 

 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi Russ,

My mistake! The statement of service of the Royal Navy ratings had a stamp applied.


This does not appear to have occurred for the Royal Marines and their equivalent, but instead was hand-written in their page within the Register of Service. This is what we see for Gunner Harry John Somners RMA/14697 at the bottom of his page from the register.

 

[Keith_history_buff]

Your Great Grandfather's WW1 record has survived. It does not suggest to me that he did participate in the Zeebrugge Raid, though. It appears that he was at Chatham at the time.

Whilst the image is not great, it appears to me that he was performing Anti-Aircraft battery duties at the time the Zeebrugge Raid participants were undergoing training. On 23 April 1918, he appears to have departed from Chatham, and to have gone to RMA Headquarters, Eastney Barracks, Portsmouth.

Of interest

Quote

1917

Late in the year, a special service battery of 3-inch guns was formed at Eastney and sent to be part of AA defence at Chatham. It moved to Dunkirk in June 1918.

Source:
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-royal-artillery-in-the-first-world-war/the-batteries-of-the-royal-marine-artillery/the-anti-aircraft-batteries-of-the-royal-marine-artillery/

So, in conclusion, I don't understand why the person recommending him to be promoted in 1949 is of the opinion that he participated in the Zeebrugge Raid 31 years previously.

Interesting to see that although he signed up for 12 years Continuous Service to commence on his 18th birthday, he was released early under Admiralty Fleet Order 1359/22 as a cost-saving exercise. The following guidance applies

 

  

On 22/03/2020 at 17:49, horatio2 said:

His engagement was terminated in late 1922 under the terms of an Admiralty Fleet Order (AFO) which saw the post-WW1 drastic reduction in the Fleet... He was paid a cash bonus (discharged with bonus on reduction).

 

   

ADM-159-87-13451.pdf

[domwalsh]

Keith_history_buff is spot on in his analysis, Russ. Ackland's name does not appear on the 4th Battalion muster for the Zeebrugge Raid.  Strange that the ballot is mentioned. There is no evidence he participated in the ballot, though I will have a more detailed scout around in my files just to make sure.

Dom

[KizmeRD]

He did at least participate in the Battle of Jutland (Iron Duke).

MB

[Keith_history_buff]

His service during the war years:

23 June 1914 - 30 May 1917      aboard HMS Iron Duke
31 May 1917 - 17 Jan 1918        HQ RMA, Eastney Barracks, Portsmouth
18 Jan 1918 - 22 Apr 1918         Chatham shore base (HMS Pembroke), serving in 3rd Anti-Aircraft Battery
23 Apr 1918 - 20 May 1918       HQ RMA, Eastney Barracks, Portsmouth
21 May 1918 - 9 July 1919         Royal Marines Field Force North Russia ( HMS Glory III)
10 July 1919 - 17 July 1919
18 July 1919 -                             HQ RMA, Eastney Barracks, Portsmouth

So, although not at Zeebrugge, he was present at Jutland, and during the North Russia intervention. 

Whilst I do have an interest in the Zeebrugge Raid, I have encountered persons with a relative who participated who get very snobby about this, and are unable to tell me what they actually did. In my humble opinion, I think it is more interesting that he was one of a few people to have had experience in AA in both world wars. It's a cherry on the cake that he took part in the North Russia intervention.

Not all heroes wear capes. Whilst he did not take part in the Zeebrugge Raid, he showed his capabilities by being promoted to Corporal whilst in the RMA, and by progressing in the TA to the rank of Warrant Officer. It's been interesting to have looked into his record of service. 

[domwalsh]

The plot thickens!

From Portsmouth Evening News 15 June 1954

[Keith_history_buff]

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good news story. That said, other than the Zeebrugge Raid misinformation, this makes for a very interesting military biography.

 

[domwalsh]

Indeed. There's still no reason to believe he was in the raid. He wouldn't be the only one.claiming as much.

[Keith_history_buff]

Among his contemporaries in North Russia:

RMA/14007 Gunner William George Butler
RMA/14406 Gunner Charles Cogan

PLY/16052 Corporal (later Temp. Second Lieutenant (local rank of Captain) ) Albert Fryer
PLY/15173 Acting Sergeant Fredrick Harold Jordan
CH/18662 Private RMLI Sidney David Simmonds

Major Lewis Arthur Drake-Brockman
Temp. Second Lieutenant Richard Charles Carvell
Temp. Second Lieutenant Ernest Bertrand Harries
Temp. Second Lieutenant Laurance Merchant
Lieutenant Colonel Robert Ormiston Paterson

 

[horatio2]

I think it may not have been the (non-) participation in the Zeebrugge action that was attractive to a reputation-builder but rather the subsequent VC ballots.

I have come across several cases where taking part in the ballot was considered (usually by family) 'as good as' an actual recommendation for the VC. In this case, the 1949 Statement of Former Service gives emphasis to the ballot rather than the action itself. In the event, of course, there were few names that were realistically 'in the hat' for a VC, notwithstanding the wording of VC Rule 13 "...all are equally brave and distinguished...". The ballots were used to decide who were most 'brave and distinguished".

[Russ Cox]

Thanks for all the time and effort you've all put in to help me out with this part of my research - I really appreciate it, and have learned a lot.

I was initially focussed on researching his service in WW2 where he was fighting with the 8th Army as a gunner in a heavy AA battery. He fought through North Africa and then up through Italy. It was only when I got his full WW2 service record that there was this vague reference to Zeebrugge that peaked my interest and sent me down a bit of a WW1 rabbit hole.

As you say, all the evidence seems to suggest he wasn't at Zeebrugge, which is a bit of shame - especially as he seems to have made that claim several times. From what some of you have said, it doesn't seem uncommon for those sort of claims to have been made by some of his contemporaries - and after everything he will have gone through during his 41 years of military service, who am I to judge his reasons.

The service on board Iron Juke at Jutland is also really interesting. Some years ago another family member commissioned a genealogy study and there is section on Albert that references Jutland (photo attached). Confusingly is states that he was "...burnt and wounded at the battle of Jutland, having his ship sunk under him." If he was on the Iron Duke (which the evidence suggests he was) then clearly he wasn't sunk. There are also no references to burns etc... in his medical discharge paper. No idea what their source was, but (apparent) shoddy research none the less. 

Couple of other photos (in addition to the previously reference genealogy paper) that might be of interest:

1) Another newspaper cutting about Albert that I have inherited.

2) A photo of the Iron Duke's ships bell. It's on show at Winchester Cathedrale, and as I only live a few miles away from there, took the opportunity to see it in person.

3) A photo of the man himself in later life. Outside of his service career he was a horticulturist and this is him judging at some sort of gardening competition.

4) A plaque dedicated to his TA Regiment that is placed on a bench at the site of their old drill hold in Gosport.

With 41 years service across two world wars and an MBE at the end of it - he was clearly a very impressive gentleman, and I'll continue to enjoy researching his military career. 

Heart felt thanks, again, for all your help thus far.

 

Edited 29 July , 2023 by Russ Cox

[Russ Cox]

[KizmeRD]

‘having his ship sunk under him’ - really?

MB

Edited 30 July , 2023 by KizmeRD

[58 Div Mule]

Well, according to newspaper reports he was a man ‘willing to do his bit’. And he liked gladioli too !

Who are we to judge if the stories became a bit stretched?
We have established that he served.

58 DM.

[domwalsh]

Russ

 It is difficult to say what caused Ackland to make the claim he did, but your analysis sounds about riight.

I once owned a DSM to a naval rating for Zeebrugge who was arrested for claiming he'd received other awards to which he was not entitled. He took part in the VC ballot, yet for some reason embellished his career.

Who knows what happens to these brave fellows to make them behave in this way?

Dom

[Keith_history_buff]

16 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

‘having his ship sunk under him’ - really?

MB

Yes, very poor genealogical research, with a noticeable lack of a source-based approach. They even failed to name the ship. I think this thread has done a great job of fleshing out this man's military service, including his 1912 TF service.

How interesting that the Zeebrugge Raid participation claim was absent from his obituary in 1964.

[wallace2]

Whilst serving in the Middle East in 2002 l met an SAS man working on the same base. During one conversation he said, "I wasn't at the Iranian Embassy Siege but have met hundreds who were."

It still goes on.

[domwalsh]

Indeed it does. In many forms.

 

I have an LSGC to an RMLI private who took part in the Zeebrugge Raid. The LSGC has been tampered with to change his rank to Captain. He suffered a gun shot wound to one of his ankles in the raid. He was demoted and deserted from the marines. He wasn't a captain, let alone entitled to an LSGC!

Edited 7 November , 2023 by domwalsh