Civilian postal services for UK military bases

[Moonraker]

This is mostly a casual enquiry, contriving an excuse to flaunt a recent acquisition:

Many UK camps had their own internal postal services provided by a mixture of Army Postal Service and civilian General Post Office staff (as shown above). Outgoing mail often bore a camp postmark. (One notable exception was Codford Camp near Warminster which retained the village postmark, possibly because the camp was so close to the village and its post office, whereas every neighbouring camp had its own postmark.) Can anyone offer details of other CIVILIAN post offices close to military establishments that had to step up to meet the extra demand?

(About 24 years ago I did search the printed catalogue of what I think became the Postal Museum archives and came up with a few references to Wiltshire. Ironically it's proved a bit more difficult to search the on-line catalogue.)

 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Moonraker said:

This is mostly a casual enquiry, contriving an excuse to flaunt a recent acquisition:

Many UK camps had their own internal postal services provided by a mixture of Army Postal Service and civilian General Post Office staff (as shown above). Outgoing mail often bore a camp postmark. (One notable exception was Codford Camp near Warminster which retained the village postmark, possibly because the camp was so close to the village and its post office, whereas every neighbouring camp had its own postmark.) Can anyone offer details of other CIVILIAN post offices close to military establishments that had to step up to meet the extra demand?

(About 24 years ago I did search the printed catalogue of what I think became the Postal Museum archives and came up with a few references to Wiltshire. Ironically it's proved a bit more difficult to search the on-line catalogue.)

 

There is something compiled at the following link by postal collector’Chris Grimshaw’ that might be of interest, but I do not know it’s extent or if it has any detailed relevance: https://www.forcespostalhistorysociety.org.uk/index.php/downloads/category/3-member-displays

The best information resource of all is apparently the publication- “History of the British Army Postal Service, Vol II, 1903-1927, Edward B Proud, Proud-Bailey Co Ltd, 1983. 312pp, hardback, illustrated with maps and photographs.”

“Edward Proud is an expert on postal history - a search on Abe Books throws up lots of titles. His work on the British Army Postal Service ran to three volumes, covering 1882 to 1965. It is obviously comprehensive; reviewers say that he is particularly good at explaining postmarks, and we now know that he lists the APOs and FPOs.”
 

Edited 27 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Terry_Reeves]

The book mentioned by Frogsmile only has the to say on the subject " The Home Depot Field Post Offices when under canvas were distinguished by during the day by  a red and white flag (horizontal stripes)  on a 6' Pole, and by night by red and white lamps. The offices were usually opened from 8 am until 8 pm.

However, after 1916, the Army Postal Service H.D. (Home Depot) seems not to have expanded further and the troops in the UK relied mainly on civil camp post offices."

TR

Edited 28 July , 2023 by Terry_Reeves

[Moonraker]

By a very curious coincidence, a booklet that arrived in the post yesterday included a description of mailing arrangements at a cadet camp in Marlborough in 1919. (The booklet is Public Secondary Schools Cadet Camp.) The civilian post office would have been in Marlborough High Street, less than a mile from the Common where the camp was located. The journey would have been up a steep hill that might have taxed a heavily-laden motor-cycle.

[FionaBam]

@Moonraker

Marlborough College interests me as 2 ancestors were pupils and one was Music Professor there . Both pupils served in WW1 , one killed and the other my grandfather survived having been commissioned into 6th Wiltshire later he  flew in RNAS.

I wondered if you know-  this Cadet School , was it there pre WW1 or established during the war ?

Thanks

 

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, FionaBam said:

@Moonraker

Marlborough College interests me as 2 ancestors were pupils and one was Music Professor there . Both pupils served in WW1 , one killed and the other my grandfather survived having been commissioned into 6th Wiltshire later he  flew in RNAS.

I wondered if you know-  this Cadet School , was it there pre WW1 or established during the war ?

Thanks

 

The Marlborough College cadet corps (later junior division of the officer training corps and subsequently a corps of the combined cadet force) was formed during the initial surge of volunteer rifle corps across Great Britain in 1860 Fiona:

1.https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1500017609

2.https://www.marlboroughcollege.org/co-curricular/outdoor-learning/

3.https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/written-answers/1911/apr/11/officers-training-corps

 

Edited 29 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FionaBam]

11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The Marlborough College cadet corps (later junior division of the officer training corps and subsequently a corps of the combined cadet force) was formed during the initial surge of volunteer rifle corps across Great Britain in 1860 Fiona:

1.https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1500017609

2.https://www.marlboroughcollege.org/co-curricular/outdoor-learning/

3.https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/written-answers/1911/apr/11/officers-training-corps

 

Oooh! Fabulous ! Thank you very much ! Very interesting the list quoted in Hansard. 466 a large number in the M.College contingency. I have seen from reading issues of the schools magazine " The Marlburian " from the war years how much they valued their serving pupils and teachers' contributions to the war .They have a beautifully done Roll of Honour on their website too.

May I pass the images and references you provided  to the archivist at Marlborough College? They may well have them already of course but just in case .

Cheers

Fiona 

[FionaBam]

18 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The Marlborough College cadet corps (later junior division of the officer training corps and subsequently a corps of the combined cadet force) was formed during the initial surge of volunteer rifle corps across Great Britain in 1860 Fiona:

1.https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1500017609

2.https://www.marlboroughcollege.org/co-curricular/outdoor-learning/

3.https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/written-answers/1911/apr/11/officers-training-corps

 

What's the last badge for please? Thanks 

[FROGSMILE]

47 minutes ago, FionaBam said:

What's the last badge for please? Thanks 

It was originally the collar badge Fiona with two loops and a cotter pin as a means of fixture.  It might also have been used on cap insignia for headdress like the field service cap, but more generally the corps used badges with sliders (vertical shanks) for most of its headwear.

Edited 29 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, FionaBam said:

Oooh! Fabulous ! Thank you very much ! Very interesting the list quoted in Hansard. 466 a large number in the M.College contingency. I have seen from reading issues of the schools magazine " The Marlburian " from the war years how much they valued their serving pupils and teachers' contributions to the war .They have a beautifully done Roll of Honour on their website too.

May I pass the images and references you provided  to the archivist at Marlborough College? They may well have them already of course but just in case .

Cheers

Fiona 

You may pass the images to whomsoever you like as far as I’m concerned Fiona, but they’re all readily found in the public domain on the internet, mostly from militaria dealers sales catalogues and their online equivalents.

 I think you’re right that the OTCs were valued by government, they very much formed the bedrock of a constant source of young officers to join battalions as casualty replacements throughout the war.  Of course tragically that led to high casualties among their number.

Edited 29 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FionaBam]

33 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

You may pass the images to whomsoever you like as far as I’m concerned Fiona, but they’re all readily found in the public domain on the internet, mostly from militaria dealers sales catalogues and their online equivalents.

 I think you’re right that the OTCs were valued by government, they very much formed the bedrock of a constant source of young officers to join battalions as casualty replacements throughout the war.  Of course tragically that led to high casualties among their number.

Thank you for all the above. The badges were very finely made .

I wasnt at all  aware of the system and structure of the OTC s and that route straight to the front line in WW1. 

Attrition rate- wonder if research has shown if OTC s had higher percentage of attrition than those officers commissioned from the ranks and independently to the OTC .

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, FionaBam said:

Thank you for all the above. The badges were very finely made .

I wasnt at all  aware of the system and structure of the OTC s and that route straight to the front line in WW1. 

Attrition rate- wonder if research has shown if OTC s had higher percentage of attrition than those officers commissioned from the ranks and independently to the OTC .

Badges were made to a high quality by well established companies operating from the jewellery (and insignia/regalia) quarters of London, Birmingham and Edinburgh.

The OTC cadets didn’t go directly to the front Fiona, they joined the officer training units just like other aspirants.  The difference was that they had already been imbued with the qualities of an officer, and so had a head start over some of the other cadets who had not received the benefit of their junior OTC training, not to mention the college’s extracurricular activities.

Your question about attrition rates is an interesting one.  There is a relatively recently published book on the subject of OTCs contributions during WW1 that might well cover that aspect.

Edited 29 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Moonraker]

1 hour ago, FionaBam said:

@Moonraker

Marlborough College interests me as 2 ancestors were pupils and one was Music Professor there . Both pupils served in WW1 , one killed and the other my grandfather survived having been commissioned into 6th Wiltshire later he  flew in RNAS.

I wondered if you know-  this Cadet School , was it there pre WW1 or established during the war ?

Thanks

As ever, Frogsmile has provided some valuable information before I had the chance to reply. And I could not have hoped to have provided so much detail.

Just to clarify: Marlborough College had its own Officers' Training Corps which joined with others from the leading public schools for a summer camp (at the end of the summer term, I think), often at Tidworth Park or Tidworth Pennings  (for Marlburians a convenient train journey from the town station to Ludgershall).  The pages I show above came from a booklet about the Public Secondary Schools Cadet Camp at Marlborough for boys mostly from grammar schools. See my other current thread. A "Public secondary schools" camp was held on Marlborough Common each year from 1915 to 1920 and from 1928 to 1931 and at other locations in between. The College provided various facilities (playing fields,  musketry range, swimming pool), and wet weather in 1917 led to the cadets being billeted in College buildings.

There was an implicit social distinction between the OTC and the Public Secondary Schools Cadet Association, with members of the latter being perceived to be of lower social status. In 1918 the Association called for "the sweeping away of the invidious and anomalous distinction between OTC schools and Cadet Corps schools".

 

 

 

Edited 29 July , 2023 by Moonraker

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Moonraker said:

As ever, Frogsmile has provided some valuable information before I had the chance to reply. And I could not have hoped to have provided so much detail.

Just to clarify: Marlborough College had its own Officers' Training Corps which joined with others from the leading public schools for a summer camp (at the end of the summer term, I think), often at Tidworth Park or Tidworth Pennings  (for Marlburians a convenient train journey from the town station to Ludgershall).  The pages I show above came from a booklet about the Public Secondary Schools Cadet Camp at Marlborough for boys mostly from grammar schools. See my other current thread. A "Public secondary schools" camp was held on Marlborough Common each year from 1915 to 1920 and from 1928 to 1931 and at other locations in between. The College provided various facilities (playing fields,  musketry range, swimming pool), and wet weather in 1917 led to the cadets being billeted in College buildings.

There was an implicit social distinction between the OTC and the Public Secondary Schools Cadet Association, with members of the latter being perceived to be of lower social status. In 1918 the Association called for "the sweeping away of the invidious and anomalous distinction between OTC schools and Cadet Corps schools".

 

 

 

Your latter paragraph encapsulates a matter that has interested me for quite some time Moonraker and if you’re able to post any articles, or media reports about it and any social outcomes or adverse publicity, I’d be very grateful to see them to further my understanding.

Edited 29 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Moonraker]

Sorry I can't be much help. The quote came from the Public Secondary Schools Cadet Association Camp Magazine, August 1918, p11, and I came across it in the thesis Officer-man relations, morale and discipline in the British Army, 1902-22, which does include other comment on social distinction.

 

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Moonraker said:

Sorry I can't be much help. The quote came from the Public Secondary Schools Cadet Association Camp Magazine, August 1918, p11, and I came across it in the thesis Officer-man relations, morale and discipline in the British Army, 1902-22, which does include other comment on social distinction.

 

Thank you, I will keep an eye out for anything else and would be grateful for any other relevant references to the matter that might be stumbled upon.

[FionaBam]

46 minutes ago, Moonraker said:

As ever, Frogsmile has provided some valuable information before I had the chance to reply. And I could not have hoped to have provided so much detail.

Just to clarify: Marlborough College had its own Officers' Training Corps which joined with others from the leading public schools for a summer camp (at the end of the summer term, I think), often at Tidworth Park or Tidworth Pennings  (for Marlburians a convenient train journey from the town station to Ludgershall).  The pages I show above came from a booklet about the Public Secondary Schools Cadet Camp at Marlborough for boys mostly from grammar schools. See my other current thread. A "Public secondary schools" camp was held on Marlborough Common each year from 1915 to 1920 and from 1928 to 1931 and at other locations in between. The College provided various facilities (playing fields,  musketry range, swimming pool), and wet weather in 1917 led to the cadets being billeted in College buildings.

There was an implicit social distinction between the OTC and the Public Secondary Schools Cadet Association, with members of the latter being perceived to be of lower social status. In 1918 the Association called for "the sweeping away of the invidious and anomalous distinction between OTC schools and Cadet Corps schools".

 

 

 

Fascinating thank you. 

Pleased to see that M.College was a little ahead of the new law and structure when in 1917 the College opened some of its superb facilities and resources to the Public Secondary Schools Cadet Corps summer camp. Perhaps the feeling of " all pulling together " in the war years permitted that  most appropriate and long since lacking  show of solidarity 

[FionaBam]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Badges were made to a high quality by well established companies operating from the jewellery (and insignia/regalia) quarters of London, Birmingham and Edinburgh.

The OTC cadets didn’t go directly to the front Fiona, they joined the officer training units just like other aspirants.  The difference was that they had already been imbued with the qualities of an officer, and so had a head start over some of the other cadets who had not received the benefit of their junior OTC training, not to mention the college’s extracurricular activities.

Your question about attrition rates is an interesting one.  There is a relatively recently published book on the subject of OTCs contributions during WW1 that might well cover that aspect.

Ah I see the process now thank you .

Lovely adverts . Nicely made indeed but assumes a certain amount of available or is that disposable  income doesn't it. Even Henry Williamson in his books ( only read 2 of them ) doesn't explain how he funded his uniform accessories and there were many .

And thanks too - just purchased a copy of Public Schools & The Great War. Look forward to reading it. ( thank goodness for WOB )

Cheers

Fiona 

[FionaBam]

30 minutes ago, Moonraker said:

Sorry I can't be much help. The quote came from the Public Secondary Schools Cadet Association Camp Magazine, August 1918, p11, and I came across it in the thesis Officer-man relations, morale and discipline in the British Army, 1902-22, which does include other comment on social distinction.

 

That's an extremely thorough and well set out thesis.  387pages  - looks a good read.  Lucky the weather is ...expletive and the nights are already drawing in .

Thank you - it's a fascinating and really important  significant aspect of warfare ,  and with all the stereo types we are presented with , some proper research is a welcome sight .

Cheers

Fiona 

[FROGSMILE]

48 minutes ago, FionaBam said:

Ah I see the process now thank you .

Lovely adverts . Nicely made indeed but assumes a certain amount of available or is that disposable  income doesn't it. Even Henry Williamson in his books ( only read 2 of them ) doesn't explain how he funded his uniform accessories and there were many .

And thanks too - just purchased a copy of Public Schools & The Great War. Look forward to reading it. ( thank goodness for WOB )

Cheers

Fiona 

Yes you’re right and in many ways it was a writ large version of today’s divisive debate about the cost of school uniforms.  There’s no doubt that the costs of such private education, and all the peripherals that went with it, had the effect of restricting the peacetime officer corps to the upper and middle classes.  The badges aspect is interesting, too, in that at that time the schools requirement was for the manufacturers a separate and lucrative corner of the military regalia market that served them very well.  Some collectors nowadays specialise in just collecting the badges of OTCs and good examples can be quite expensive.

Edited 29 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FionaBam]

18 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes you’re right and in many ways it was a writ large version of today’s divisive debate about the cost of school uniforms.  There’s no doubt that the costs of such private education, and all the peripherals that went with it, had the effect of restricting the peacetime officer corps to the upper and middle classes.  The badges aspect is interesting, too, in that at that time there was for the manufacturers a separate and lucrative corner of the military regalia market that served them very well.  Some collectors nowadays specialise in just collecting the badges of OTCs and good examples can be quite expensive.

My grandfather s WW1 service history is a really interesting example of the Officer system floundering  in 2  different ways and I shall be recounting it in a joint article I am writing with a fellow GWF colleague ( who is far far ahead of me in knowledge and WW1 expertise) so I'll keep shtoom ( spelling?!) about the facts for now . Hoping it ll be published fingers crossed 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, FionaBam said:

My grandfather s WW1 service history is a really interesting example of the Officer system floundering  in 2  different ways and I shall be recounting it in a joint article I am writing with a fellow GWF colleague ( who is far far ahead of me in knowledge and WW1 expertise) so I'll keep shtoom ( spelling?!) about the facts for now . Hoping it ll be published fingers crossed 

 

 

 

Hmmm I think I might know (can guess) who that might be 🤔

[FionaBam]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Hmmm I think I might know (can guess) who that might be 🤔

Ha ha!

@Mike if I selected the right one!

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, FionaBam said:

Ha ha!

@Mike if I selected the right one!

Good luck with your joint project, I’m sure it will go very well. Not who I thought in this case.

[FionaBam]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Good luck with your joint project, I’m sure it will go very well. Not who I thought in this case.

@MikeW

I meant to tag

my apologies to @Mike for disturbing you

Thank you Frogsmile