Medals to Men from Merthyr Tydfil, South Wales

[GMB]

I am currently undertaking a project within the Merthyr Tydfil (South Wales) area, where I am compiling a Casualty list of men who were KIA during WW1 as there was never an accurate one produced (believe it or not). I am currently at 1200 men(!) and counting.

Part of this (and as part of my collecting theme), is noting what medals are extant to men from Merthyr who were either KIA or were awarded a gallantry award during WW1. If any members have any medals that fit this description, I would love to hear about them & highlight them as part of my project.

Thanks

Gavin

[clive_hughes]

Hi Gavin,

I've been undertaking a similar project for Anglesey for many years now.  Just for comparison my casualties total is currently 1,279 - a reflection of Merthyr's population back then, compared to Anglesey's!  

My figures however go beyond those killed in action to the men who died of wounds, sickness, accident etc. during and after the war, as the CWGC runs up to 1921.  Local war memorials may also mention individuals who (by whatever measure the local committees used) died as a result of the war even up to 1924 (there were 62 war-related deaths in the period 1919-24 that I'm aware of).  The last one known to me died of wounds in 1948 when he was in his 50s, according to his gravestone! 

At any rate, if I identify any Merthyr residents on my list I'll be sure to let you know, and all power to your research project.

Cheers,

Clive  

[GMB]

Thanks Clive, same this side if I get any on my Merthyr list from up your way.

I have to say I have been shocked by the number of casualties from the Borough, but never thought it would compare to somewhere like Anglesey! How long have you been researching?

I am just over 2 years in, which has led to a number of other areas I am leading on within the Borough. The strangest thing for me is the main war memorial in Merthyr doesn't bare one name (it was deemed there were too many, so a book would be created and displayed in Cyfarthfa Castle, which unfortunately never happened). A number of smaller memorials were erected in the surrounding villages, but I would say around 80/90% of the men are not commemorated anywhere which is a huge shame. Luckily a rough list was created in 1931 with the unveiling of the war memorial, which was the start of the project, however it carries a huge number of mistakes and missed men. Most exciting thing for myself is uncovering the stories which have been lost over time, which includes a side project which is Gallantry winners within Merthyr.

Interesting point re: men DoW following 1919 - I think I have only 2 men so far post 1919, but I cannot establish if they died of natural causes or due to service (Newspapers are hit and miss). How have you been able to confirm they died due to a result of active service?

Cheers

Gavin

Edited 26 July , 2023 by GMB

[clive_hughes]

Hi Gavin,

I'll try not to make this a long, boring answer...as to how long I've been collecting these names, well technically since 1973.  Back then I was a schoolboy, and had been collecting medals since about 1968 (a single WW1 Victory back then could cost 10 pence, so affordable within my 50p a week pocket money!).  In 1973 I decided that I needed a list of local casualties so as to help me purchase these, so I set about gathering the names.  No computers back then, just travelling to where the memorials were and copying the names by hand.  In some cases the memorials included names and dates tying the casualty into the post-war period.  

Eventually the collection was dispersed and I gathered information simply for the sake of remembering these casualties.  More sources began to appear -  I discovered that the North Wales Heroes Memorial Arch in Bangor wasn't just a little building which I passed every other day, but contained the names of all the WW1 dead from the 6 old counties of North Wales, helpfully arranged in parish order.   Local libraries and museums and county archives held war memorial unveiling leaflets, sometimes lists of county dead, or more local material such as chapel/church histories, etc.   I could buy CWGC memorial registers and cemetery registers, and in a good proportion of cases the families had added extra information on an individual, sometimes including cause of death.  If a casualty was accepted by the CWGC after the Armistice then it's a good bet that they were either still serving or had died of war-related causes.   

With computerisation, the available sources have mushroomed - many Welsh local newspapers of the period are now online and to a degree searchable (obits can often tie a death into war-related causes);  "Soldiers Died in the Great War"; the Welsh National Book of Remembrance, which is in the NLW Aberystwyth, but also available online  https://www.library.wales/discover-learn/digital-exhibitions/manuscripts/modern-period/the-welsh-national-book-of-remembrance -  I have the impression that it's effectively a Welsh edition of the CWGC record.  Official service records have been digitised, together with Pensions records, medal rolls, and so on, with more still appearing. 

I confess I've not spent the whole of the last 50 years gathering this stuff, sometimes several years might have seen no activity as I got married and had jobs to do and a family to occupy my time (still applies even nowadays as a grandad!).  At the end of the day you have to set your own parameters for your project - cut off dates, local boundaries (which have changed over the years), and qualifying personnel - so e.g., do you include persons born in Merthyr but who moved away elsewhere before they joined up?  Do you include them simply if their next of kin resided in Merthyr; or even if they themselves simply enlisted there?   

A few hundred yards down the road from me is the grave of a young man who died in 1922, and it says on there that he died of his war wounds.  So he isn't covered by CWGC for starters, or "Soldiers Died".  Neither was he born on Anglesey, though he does appear as a soldier in the 1918 Absent Voters List for the island.  His records survive to the extent that it's a good bet that he was wounded in the fighting on the Western Front in about late August 1918, was discharged in 1919 and lingered with the painful effects of his service until he passed away after the 1921 cut-off date for CWGC.  However, as far as I'm concerned he was a casualty of the war, and lived locally, so he's included in the database.  You have to make your own decisions on borderline cases.  

Sorry, it's inevitably turned into a long, boring answer despite my best intentions!  You may find other sources to help you in your task, but I wish you every success.  You can always contact me via the PM (personal messaging) service on the Forum if wished, once you've made a given number of postings.   

Clive

  

Edited 26 July , 2023 by clive_hughes
Correction

[GMB]

That's really interesting - I do count myself lucky that when starting this the internet is around with a host of resources to use, however CWGC, Ancestry & WFA (Fold 3) have been invaluable. What do you plan to do one your list is 'complete'? I collect medals specifically to Casualties & Gallantry from Merthyr, so this list helps massively. 

You have raised some good points which I am in the middle of deciding what to do. I have included lads who were born in Merthyr and moved away, along with lads who were born elsewhere and moved to Merthyr (such as myself who is a Cardiff boy originally). The tricky ones are the lads who were born and lived elsewhere, but enlisted in Merthyr (mostly due to having family in the area). I have included these in the roll for the time being, however, I am slightly on the fence. It has thrown up some really interesting and sad statistics so far, like 29 were Gallantry winners (I don't have any of their medals as yet!), 21 sets of brothers were KIA over the course of the war, 11 were KIA on 1st Day of the Somme,  the youngest casualty was age 16 and the oldest was Age 49. Its that level of information that really interests myself.

Around 18 months ago I did have the 14/15 trio & MP to a lad from Anglesey (he was a W Prefix, Artillery) - I will see if I can dig out the details if of interest.

Gavin

 

[clive_hughes]

Gavin,

Thanks for not being put off by my long reply...well, as luck would have it I spotted an Anglesey-Merthyr connection this evening, whilst checking one regiment's batch of casualties - it's the new Forum thread link to the MGC database, and looks good.  You could search it by place name alone (I tried inputting search term Anglesey and it threw up over 400 hits!). 

He was David Owen, born Beaumaris, Ang.  Enlisted Merthyr as 17737 RWF.  Transferred to MGC (Inf.) as Pte. 139931 - I estimate this happened about late March 1918, from an old source which matched MGC numbers with the approx. date issued.  Served France in "A" Company 38th Battalion MGC (Inf.), which was a unit of 38th (Welsh) Division.  KIA 20/5/18.  Buried Serre Road Cemetery No.1, Somme.   Not sure he left much of a footprint here on the Island: there is a vague "Cpl. D. Owen RWF"  under Beaumaris if that's the same man, but I can't get an address or any other details eg. next of kin.  His RWF number is a 1914 Kitchener New Army one.  The 20,000-21,500 number block was allocated to the 14th RWF, so probably an earlier unit than that. 

A comparative statistic for you - population of Anglesey 1911 circa 50,000.  Population of Merthyr 1911 circa 81,000. 

The highest awards I used to own were an MC & trio (MID) group to an officer in the Leicesters (I think - have to unearth my old catalogue), who was later KIA.  Cost my Dad about £25 and I got it as a present for passing my "A" levels in 1973 or 74!  Otherwise for Other Ranks, a DCM & trio to an NCO of the 5th Field Coy., Royal Anglesey REs, a local unit.  It was for Palestine, and for good service in keeping the supplies coming rather than gallantry.  

Only 7 Anglesey fatalities for the 1st day of the Somme, of whom only one (in 2nd SWBs) was in a Welsh unit.  Totally different picture a few days later when 38th Div. got stuck into Mametz Wood!  

The W prefix (as you likely know) was for men specifically enlisted in 1914-15 for the 38th Welsh Division RFA.  At the time the creation of the "Lloyd George Army" (Welsh Army Corps) as a Welsh project persuaded the authorities to do so as they were to be "kept separate" from other New Army formations.  It wasn't used for any other WAC troops, and I think they got to about W-5000 or so in numbering before dropping the idea.  Yes, by all means please let me have his details if you can find them. 

Cheers,

Clive

 

[clive_hughes]

Hi Gavin,

having finally worked out how to interrogate my database for the word "Merthyr", these are the alleged Anglesey casualties with links to that place (not including David Owen above):

HUGHES, John James  18336 Pte. 8th Bn. Cheshire Regt.   Born Llangefni, Ang., enlisted Merthyr.  Died 30.6.1916, India, of enteric fever, aged 32.  Buried Bombay (Sewri) Cemy., India.  next of kin resident Aberfan, Merthyr Vale, Glamorgan.   He wasn't commemorated on Anglesey.  

JONES, John  302534 Pte.  2/8th Bn. Manchester Regt.  Enlisted Merthyr, next of kin resident Hengoed, Cardiff.  Died of wounds 13.10.1917 Belgium.  Buried Nine Elms Cemetery, Poperinghe, Belgium.  DCM.  CWGC state age 17.  Appears on the War memorial in Gwalchmai, Anglesey (parish of Trewalchmai) as age 16 and resident Cerrig Druidion (?or Cerrig y Druidion) in Gwalchmai - not to be confused with Cerrigydrudion village in Denbighshire - now Conwy!).  

MEREDITH, John William 3543 Pte.   3rd Machine-Gun Company, Australian MGC.  Originally enlisted at Merthyr Tydfil in April 1911 as Pte. 10554 2nd Bn. Welsh Regt.  Discharged by purchase February 1913.  Emigrated 1913.  Next enlisted (?Melbourne or) Adelaide, South Australia August 1915 as Pte. 27th Australian Infantry,   Resident Narracoorta, South Australia.    A racehorse owner and trainer by occupation.  Overseas (Egypt) January 1916.  Transferred to 10th Australian Inf. Feb. 1916.  To France April 1916.  Transferred to Australian MGC Feb. 1917.  Killed in action, Glencorse Wood, Belgium 20.9.17.  Aged 25.  No known grave, Menin Gate Memorial, Ypres.  Next of kin residences variously stated as Castellior, Llansadwrn, Anglesey; Breeze Hill, Menai Bridge, Ang.; Frances near Narracoorte, S.Australia; also linked to Naseby, Northamptonshire, and Churchfield, Oundle, Northants.  Appears on a number of Anglesey memorials - CWGC state "native of Castellior, Llansadwrn" (named on Llansadwrn parish list on N.Wales Meml. Arch, Bangor, and local war meml.); Llangefni Grammar School memorial; ?at Menai Bridge; and also named on his mother's gravestone in Llandegfan Churchyard, Ang.  

THOMAS, Hugh  12200 Pte.  8th Bn. RWF.  Born "Llangadfan, Ang."  Enlisted Penarth, Glamorgan.  Killed in action 16.8.1915, Gallipoli.  Aged 27.  No grave, Helles Memorial, Gallipoli. Next of kin resident Abercynon, Glam., but later (?CWGC) shown as 16 Homerton Street, Matthewstown, Merthyr Tydfil.   Not recorded on Anglesey memorial lists - possibly place of birth an error for Llangadfan, Montgomeryshire?  

Any queries on the above, just let me know.

Cheers,

Clive

 

 

[GMB]

Thanks Clive that is brilliant, I will cross ref those on my database to see a) if I have them and b) if I have anything photos or info in my records.

Typically I cannot find the info on the W Prefix lad - but I know I have it somewhere. I will go digging through my emails, I am positive he was from Anglesey (I sold it to someone up that way as well).

If only you could buy a officers MC and trio for £25 nowadays (and even better get it as a present!). I've got a DCM group and 4 MM groups to Merthyr lads - nothing to officers and from everything I have in my collection, I rarely come across anything officer related (which is strange). I have an MP to a 2nd Lt who DoW as a POW (just added it to the postcard section), but slim pickings.

I still find it strange how lads enlisted all over the place, like John Jones. I assume he came down this way for work - Hengoed is a long way from Anglesey!

Gavin

 

[clive_hughes]

Gavin,

Not sure whether all of those will be relevant to the project, but that's literally all with a "Merthyr" connection of which I'm aware!

W prefix Anglesey RFA casualties - my RFA list shows a W/1038 Edward Owen B/121 Brigade RFA from Llanddeusant;  or W/4427 Thomas Owen 50th Divisional Ammunition Column from Cerrigceinwen as likely candidates, but there may be others of course.

Cheers,

Clive