Who attacked RIR 239 on 25.9.16 at Morval?

[Biltea]

Hi there

I've just read the history of the German Reserve Infantry Regiment no. 239, for September 25-28, 1916, ie during the Battle of Morval. This regiment was part of the 52nd Reserve Division. RIR 239 was tasked with the defence of the village of Morval itself.

The history has a detailed account of how their third battalion was overpowered on the 25th. At 4 pm (3 pm British time) the British rushed the battalion's dugout and threw in grenades. The dugout caught fire........to fight  a way out was unthinkable.......the first to crawl out was the battalion's doctor, one Dr Strauchenbruch. He begged to have the wounded removed from the burning shelter, which in fact happened. All the occupants surrendered.

However - I can't find any reference to this incident in the war diaries of the 5th Division, which attacked and captured Morval that day. Perhaps I missed something? I would have thought such an incident was worth recording in the WD's of the successful British battalion. 

If any member has any information about the British side of this attack I would be very grateful to receive it.

Thanks - Bill

 

 

[PRC]

The order of attack of the 15th Brigade was the 1st Norfolks at 12.35 p.m, the 1st Bedfords at 1.35 pm and the 1st Cheshires at 2.35 pm - so as the Norfolks and Bedfords attacked on time and achieved their objectives that would potententially put the Cheshires attacking at approximately the right time.

One of the appendecies in the 1st Bedfords War Diary is Fancy Secret Operation Order No.4 Amendment to No.4 24.9.16

6.Infantry will reach main road running N.N.W. from church in MORVAL at ZERO plus 2 hours 14 minutes (3rd. objective) They will reach Eastern outskirts of village at 2 hours and 16 mins. i.e. 16 minutes after leaving the sunken road.

7. The assaulting troops will leave their trenches at the following hours precisely Norfolks for 1st objective Zero Bedfords for 2nd objective Zero + 1 hour Cheshires for 3rd objective Zero + 2 hrs.
http://www.bedfordregiment.org.uk/1stbn/1stbtn1916appendices.html

The 1st Norfolks War Diary shows they had taken their objective by 12.40 p.m. and immediately began consolidating and made contact with the 1st Devons of the 95th Brigade who were attacking on their right.

The 1st Norfolks War Diary entry for 1.35 pm is that the "1/Bedfords advanced to assault of sunken road - 6th Divn on our left attacked".

So depending on exactly where the German dug-out in question was it is even possible that it may have been troops of the 6th Division who made the attack.

In "A Short History of the Sixth Division", it states the objective allocated to them was the ground between the north end of Morval and the road which passes through the centre of Lesbouefs. On the right of the Sixth Division the initial attack was by the Buffs of the 16th Infantry Brigade and the final objective was taken by the K.S.L.I. and the York and Lancasters.

After commenting on this being one of the most successful battles on the Somme it continues on page 25 with "The Division captured over 500 prisoners, 6 machine-guns, and 4 heavy trench mortars. Tanks were not used. We here turned the tables on the 52nd Division, 25th Reserve Corps, our old opponents at Ypres, where the ground was all in their favour and where they had proved troublesome antagonists." (My emphasis).

Those attacking units would have been 1st Bn, Buffs (East Kent Regiment), 1st Bn, King’s Shropshire Light Infantry and 2nd Bn, York & Lancaster Regiment.

May be worthwhile consulting Divisional War Diaries for Intelligence Officers reports on the units being faced and the summaries of interviews with prisoners.

Hope that helps,
Peter

[Biltea]

Dear Peter

Thank you for your detailed reply to my question and for all the time taken to prepare it.

What perhaps I should have also mentioned in my question was that I was not only trying to work out which British battalion captured the German dugout and its occupants but that there should be an account/mention of that capture   - however brief - that I could compare with the German version.

First things first. I agree that the Cheshires of 15th Brigade are the most likely 'culprits.' They may well have been the battalion which captured that German dugout. However, the Cheshires' WD makes no mention of this capture, so even if they were the correct battalion, this is, sadly, no use to me, as they make no mention of the fact.

The 5th Division are the most likely conquerors as the History of RIR 239 contains a map showing the location of III Battalion HQ, ie at approx. T11c.6/4, on the right-hand side of Morval, and very much in the 5th Division's area of attack.

Similarly, I have looked at the WD's of the 6th Division. One of their battalions may have strayed slightly south of their own objective  and captured the III/RIR 239 dugout. Again, however, there is no mention of this capture at battalion, brigade, or division level in their war diaries. 

I will take your advice and see if there is any useful information in the various intelligence reports of the time.

Again I thank you for your reply Peter.

Best wishes - Bill

 ps - if there is anyone else out there with any answers to this question, please come forward!

 

[Chesterboy]

On 22/07/2023 at 22:10, Biltea said:

Hi there

I've just read the history of the German Reserve Infantry Regiment no. 239, for September 25-28, 1916, ie during the Battle of Morval. This regiment was part of the 52nd Reserve Division. RIR 239 was tasked with the defence of the village of Morval itself.

The history has a detailed account of how their third battalion was overpowered on the 25th. At 4 pm (3 pm British time) the British rushed the battalion's dugout and threw in grenades. The dugout caught fire........to fight  a way out was unthinkable.......the first to crawl out was the battalion's doctor, one Dr Strauchenbruch. He begged to have the wounded removed from the burning shelter, which in fact happened. All the occupants surrendered.

However - I can't find any reference to this incident in the war diaries of the 5th Division, which attacked and captured Morval that day. Perhaps I missed something? I would have thought such an incident was worth recording in the WD's of the successful British battalion. 

If any member has any information about the British side of this attack I would be very grateful to receive it.

Thanks - Bill

 

 

Try looking at the story of 11000 Private Thomas Alfred Jones of the 1st Battalion, Cheshire Regiment who on the 25th September 1916 who would be awarded the VC for his personal actions at Morval and the capture of over 100 Germans on that day 

[helpjpl]

9 hours ago, Chesterboy said:

Try looking at the story of 11000 Private Thomas Alfred Jones of the 1st Battalion, Cheshire Regiment who on the 25th September 1916 who would be awarded the VC for his personal actions at Morval and the capture of over 100 Germans on that day 

The following may be of interest:

1.  An eyewitness account of the action and photo of 'Todger' Jones at the head of German soldiers he captured and disarmed. Runcorn Weekly News 03 November 1916:

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=BL/0000964/19161103/195&stringtohighlight=todger

 

2.  Todger Jones own account.  Runcorn Weekly News 10 November 1916:

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=BL/0000964/19161110/079&stringtohighlight=todger

 

Both from findmypast:

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search-newspapers/results?names=todger&startdate=1916-01-01&enddate=1916-12-31&o=date&d=asc&page=2&sid=197

 

JP

 

[Biltea]

Thanks very much to Chesterboy and JP for your helpful replies. I am following them up as I write.

 

Thanks - Bill