Killed by friendly fire?

[McCudden]

I’m hoping someone can add some detail to this mysterious incident. According to TSTB, on July 3rd 1917, 2nd Lt Tom Littler of 1 squadron was shot down in his Nieuport 23 over 42 squadron aerodrome by a Pup with a streamer from 46 squadron which then flew off south. 
So who was the 46 sqn pilot? Why did he make this error and was there any sort of investigation? 
Thanks. Alex

[TullochArd]

........ now that would appear to be a very different story from that given to Littler's father and recorded by him here  .......... 

Littler, John, Mr. to IWM | Imperial War Museums

and that reported in "FLIGHT" of 26 July 1917

"Second Lieutenant TOM LITTLER, R.F.C., was the only child of Mr. and Mrs. John Littler, of Simla, Brixham. He was killed in an aerial action on July 3rd, aged 19. He was educated at Paignton College, and after some experience at the engineering works of the Great Western Railway Co.,Swindon, joined the Artists' Rifles O.T.C. in November, 1916, and transferred to the R.F.C. as cadet last March. He obtained his commission on April 12th and his " wings “ on May 18th. At the time of his death he had been three weeks at the front"

Edited 22 July , 2023 by TullochArd

[McCudden]

Thanks. So his father was led to believe he died fighting four enemy aircraft. Could he have been told that to soften the blow of the loss? Or perhaps it’s an incident the RFC preferred not to discuss with him. 

[TullochArd]

2 minutes ago, McCudden said:

Thanks. So his father was led to believe he died fighting four enemy aircraft. Could he have been told that to soften the blow of the loss? Or perhaps it’s an incident the RFC preferred not to discuss with him. 

It looks like it although there was an official investigation.  There is a more complete story with the name of the other pilot recorded in IWM Lives (I'm struggling to see a source)

"3RD JULY 1917

At 10:00 on the morning of 3 July 1917, "C" Flight of 1 Squadron RFC had taken off from their base in northern France for a patrol and were returning at about 12:15. The CO of 1 Squadron, Major Adams, saw one of the Nieuport Scout planes spinning down, pursued by another plane, which was shooting at it. The Nieuport crashed into the ground and by the time Major Adams reached it the pilot, Tom Littler, was dead. Subsequent investigation proved that the culprit was a Sopwith Pup from 46 Squadron, piloted by a Canadian, Lloyd Fleming. It appeared that it was a case of mistaken identity because, from some angles, the Nieuport might be confused with a German Albatros Scout but this still did not explain why Fleming didn't see the clear RFC markings, including Roundels, on Littler's Nieuport. General Trenchard, commanding the RFC in France, responded swiftly by moving 46 Squadron away to another area to the south, and by dispatching Lloyd Fleming to Palestine, where he was later awarded the Military Cross."

Edited 22 July , 2023 by TullochArd

[McCudden]

Thank you very much for solving this mystery. No conspiracy or false flag incident. Simply a case of mistaken identity. 

[TullochArd]

Yes. Tragic. That would be some burden to carry. Here is Lloyd Fleming MC in Palestine sometime after the event (IWM Q 69628).  It would have been nice to see the photo of Tom Littler, as mentioned by his father, but I failed to locate any in the public domain.

 

[charlie962]

It would be interesting to read Fleming's version. Quite a load to carry for the rest of his life.

[McCudden]

Indeed. Having refreshed my memory of the Nieuport 23 plans, I think I can see a vague similarity between the top view and an albatross D3. In addition, I imagine that in silhouette, and perhaps diving, the roundels would be hard to identify. Or maybe I’m just looking for similarities that aren’t there.

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, TullochArd said:

Here is Lloyd Fleming MC

This is, I think, Austin Lloyd Fleming.

His name appears in the papers in1942 as a Sqdn Leader of an RAF maintenance unit being done for drunk driving in 1942 and then again in 1944 for wearing service uniform after discharge. 

I wonder if these problems had origins back to WW1 ?? 

Here's Lloyd Fleming's MC citation, courtesy Findmypast newspapers 1918

[charlie962]

His wiki bio mentions the incident.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Lloyd_Fleming

[TullochArd]

19 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

This is, I think, Austin Lloyd Fleming.

I think you are right there Charlie.  The actual LG citation expands on the newspaper's abbreviated version:

"T./Lt. Austin Lloyd Fleming, R.F.C. For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. He attacked a formation of three enemy machines, and forced the leading machine, which was a two-seater, to land, although the other two were attacking him from behind. He then attacked and destroyed another of the enemy machines, and engaged the third, which succeeded in escaping. He destroyed four enemy machines during one month, and showed splendid courage and skill on many occasions"

Edited 22 July , 2023 by TullochArd

[charlie962]

He'd only just qualified as a pilot a month before the incident if I read the bio correctly?

[stevenbecker]

When you concider most of Flemings claims could not be confirmed?

Even the one where he claim two brought down and gained his MC has no mentions I cam find?

His first I could not find a pilot for the aircraft?

Führer Julius     Lt deR    Observer (Beobachter) Airforce Flieger-Abteilung 300     1917-18     (1896 at Wattenscheid KIA 17-1-18) reported shot down by Lt Fleming/Knowles 111 Sqn RFC in Bristol F.2b (A7192) at Kalikieh or near Bidia buried Nazareth Cemetery Israel brother Lt Norbert Führer KIA 10-7-18 near Bastieux-Chatillon

and the other

Haugg (Hauch) Ludwig    Lt    Pilot Airforce Flieger-Abteilung 304b 10-17     1917-18    (1893 at Buttenwiesen KIA 29-1-18) Bavarian from Royal Bavarian Chevau-légers No 8 to Feldflieger-Abteilung 6b WIA at Darnisions Lazarett Saarburg shot down British Pup with Capt Smith 66 Sqn near Noyelles France (1 victory) to Palestine to hosp (sick) 10-17 rtn 11-17 reported AEG C4 forced landed when wounded with Lt Hauck (O) wounded in dog fight by Lt Fleming SE 5a (B538) 111 Sqn RFC near Bahnhof Nazareth shown KIA reported died from wounds buried Nazareth Cemetery Israel (spelling in Ole Nikoljsen)
 

his other claims no luck?

Unknown         Airforce    1917-18    Claimed EA two seater shot down by Lt Fleming/Knowles 111 Sqn RFC in Bristol F.2b (A7198) & Shared with Lt D B Aitken & Lt L A J Barbe (A7196) near Jaffa-Arsuf 18-1-18
Unknown         Airforce    1917-18    Claimed Albatros D3 shot down by Lt Fleming 111 Sqn RFC in SE 5a (B358) near Tul Keram 23-1-18
Unknown         Airforce    1917-18    Claimed EA shot down by Lt Fleming 111 Sqn RFC in SE 5a (B538) near NW of Tul Keram 24-1-18
Unknown         Airforce    1917-18    Claimed Albatros D3 shot down by Lt Fleming 111 Sqn RFC in SE 5a (B540) near E of Bireh 10-3-18
Unknown         Airforce    1917-18    Claimed 2x Albatros D5 out of control by Lt Fleming 111 Sqn RFC in SE 5a (B6242) near Tul Keram 12-4-18
Unknown         Airforce    1917-18    Claimed Albatros D3 out of control by Lt Fleming/Gilham 111 Sqn RFC & Austin/Finlay 1 Sqn AFC (RE 8 (A4408) SW of Samaria near Tul Keram 29-11-17
Unknown         Airforce    1917-18    Claimed Albatros D3 out of control by Lt Fleming/Gilham 111 Sqn RFC& Austin/Finlay 1 Sqn AFC (RE 8 (A4408) near Tul Keram 29-11-17

Maybe one day we may know or not
S.B

[stevenbecker]

The Fleming claim shows 

Unknown         Airforce    1917-18    Claimed Albatros D3 shot down by Lt Fleming 111 Sqn RFC in SE 5a (B540) near E of Bireh 10-3-18

I did find a match, but not in the area he claims?

Mülazim-i / Tegmen / Üstegmen    Lt    Sabri Efendi    Observer Airforce 5th Aircraft Company 3-16 still there 12-16 still there 12-17         shown AEG C4 (AEG7) with Drewes (P) crashed on landing after sortie to Chios 10-3-18 (spelling in Ole Nikoljsen)

Drewes    Sgt / VzFeldwebel    Observer (Beobachter) to pilot 9-17 Airforce to 5th Aircraft Company Tayyare Boluk 5-17    1917-18     shown AEG C4 (AEG 7) with Sabri (O) crashed on landing after sortie to Chios 10-3-18 (not identified) (spelling in Ole Nikoljsen)
 

So can not be what he means by his unknown claim

[grantowi]

Bit more on Tom Littler, He was a Premium Apprentice in the GWR, Swindon works. I have a start date of 07/09/1914, but that seems to be a bit late, as I have a DoB of 25/12/1897 (which ties in with his DoD).

But either way, he would have cut short his apprentice to join up (many other did, and continued when they returned from the War)

[nils d]

Just for the record , Littler's forename was TOM rather than the more formal Thomas. Unusual for the time but wouldn't raise an eyebrow these days .