Help needed, David Howe, regiment Identification.

[ROBERT LORD]

I am trying to research a great great uncle in the attached image, additional information is that his name is David Howe and served in the battle of the Somme, but this is unverified.

I would be very grateful if anyone could identify his rank or any other information from the picture.

This is my first use of this forum, so many thanks for your help.

 

Bob Lord

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. I can’t see anything to ID a regiment on his uniform. He appears to have the rank of lieutenant, also appears to be wearing a lighter style, uniform, which could suggest warm climate service. @FROGSMILE or @CorporalPunishment might be able to assist you further.I can’t make out the medal ribbon unfortunately. Was his full name David Howe? Do you have any further biographical details, ie date and place of birth? 
The battle of the Somme service could be a red herring; my family were adamant that a family member was killed at Gallipoli, in fact he didn’t even join up until after the campaign! 

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

Welcome to the forum. I can’t see anything to ID a regiment on his uniform. He appears to have the rank of lieutenant, also appears to be wearing a lighter style, uniform, which could suggest warm climate service. @FROGSMILE or @CorporalPunishment might be able to assist you further.I can’t make out the medal ribbon unfortunately. Was his full name David Howe? 
The battle of the Somme service could be a red herring; my family were adamant that a family member was killed at Gallipoli, in fact he didn’t even join up until after the campaign! 

You’re right that he’s wearing khaki drill tropical service dress Michelle, which usually means shoulder titles for officers and I can just make them out on the end of his straps, but unfortunately they’re illegible.  Without them only his buttons would give away the identity of his regiment / corps and I cannot make them out on a phone screen.

NB.  The uppermost button looks like it might have something circular at its centre, perhaps a garter strap, but it’s unclear.

Afternote:  The ASC button suggested by Pete works quite well, as does Royal Engineers, both have a circular feature at centre.

 

Edited 18 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Hi @ROBERT LORD and welcome to the forum

There would be a strong likelihood that any Medal Index Card, (MiC), would refer to him as a Lieutenant, (either 2nd or straight Lieutenant). The additional line of enquiry that would bring up is that officers had to apply for their medals, and so if they did there were normally contact addresses on the reverse side of the card. It would seem very likely there would be a MiC as he is wearing a medal ribbon. And depending on the date he applied for the medals then it may be possible to verify it's your man from the relevant 1921 Census return for that address.

So I went looking in the National Archive catalogue for a "David Howe", rank Lieutenant, expecting to find many and having to write out lots of details and addresses.

What I found was just the one. Norman David Howe was a 2nd Lieutenant when he landed* in Egypt on the 30th July 1915 and serving with the Royal Engineers. He is subsequently referred to as an Acting Captain and then Captain - for the latter his unit is shown as Royal Engineers (Anglesey).

Image courtesy of Ancestry.

*Take the date of landing and Theatre of War with a pinch of salt. Standard practice pre-war was to show the date of leaving the home establishment, (i.e. sailing, rather than arriving), and some clerks at the relevant records offices seem to have continued that practice. And some men shown with a first Theatre of War shown as Egypt - which it wasn't officially in July 1915 but was by the time the record cards were being produced in 1918 - were actually only there on passage to Gallipoli rather than permanently stationed there. In my experience the records office of the Royal Engineers are regularly 'guilty' on both counts of day and Theatre, although more usually with individuals whose first service in a Theatre of War was with another Regiment \ Corps. Some of my Norfolk Regiment men were only ashore for a few hours to stretch their feet but if they subsequently transferred into the Royal Engineers their first Theatre of War is shown as Egypt. As 99.99% of the time the exact date made no difference to the medals to be awarded you can see why it might not have been the clerks top priority to be accurate.

The Royal Anglesey Royal Engineers is a bit of an oddity in the Army structure. Our parent site, the Long, Long Trail has a page on them. Only 5th Siege Company, (by then renamed 5 Fortress Company) went to Gallipoli, but they didn't sail from England until the 24th August 1915. They remained in the Middle East for the rest of the war. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-corps-of-royal-engineers-in-the-first-world-war/royal-anglesey-royal-engineers/

I won't go too much further in case that man is a 'red herring'.

Cheers,
Peter

 

Edited 18 July , 2023 by PRC
Typo

[tankengine888]

That's a British War Medal if I've ever seen one. If that MIC is our man, I would've expected him to be wearing his star ribbon.

Zidane.

[PRC]

The only other surviving officers long papers are for a Lieutenant David Llewellyn Howe, Army Service Corps - but that man has no obvious MiC. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1106756

Of course the David Howe we are looking for may have stayed in post-war and hence no papers (yet) at the UK National Archive.

There are many possible explanations for the mis-match between the various sources - I suspect we need the OP to give us a few biographical details in order to firm up the possibilities.

Cheers,
Peter

[CorporalPunishment]

The buttons appear to be Army Service Corps. The  medal ribbon is that of the British War Medal and as Zidane has pointed out, if he had served overseas before December 31st 1915, then he would have received one of the Stars as well.        Pete.

[DavidOwen]

A single BWM suggests he travelled overseas but did not serve in a theatre of war as then the Victory Medal would be awarded too. Service in India being a prime example.

Did the man concerned have any overseas connections?

[CorporalPunishment]

My mistake, I should have said had he served in a theatre of war before December 31st 1915 he would have recieved a Star. The photo clearly dates from post-July 1919 following the introduction of the British War Medal.     Pete.

[Andrew Upton]

5 hours ago, DavidOwen said:

A single BWM suggests he travelled overseas but did not serve in a theatre of war as then the Victory Medal would be awarded too....

Or equally he might have eventually been entitled to the VM as well but the picture could have been taken in the period mid/late 1919 (after the BWM had been officially introduced but prior to the VM being introduced).

[DavidOwen]

27 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

Or equally he might have eventually been entitled to the VM as well but the picture could have been taken in the period mid/late 1919 (after the BWM had been officially introduced but prior to the VM being introduced).

Indeed.

I have checked the Indian Army lists for 1915,1917,1919 but no sign of a David Howe.

[Michelle Young]

@ROBERT LORD are you aware that you have answers to your query? 

[ROBERT LORD]

Many thanks to all who replied, I will investigate further.

[PRC]

2 hours ago, ROBERT LORD said:

Many thanks to all who replied, I will investigate further.

As you have him placed in your family tree as your great great uncle then hopefuly you have details about parents \ census locations \ siblings and any marriage \ children. If you care to share as much of the details as you feel comfortable with then it may well be possible to help you more.

Cheers,
Peter