Uniform/patch ID. Family photos

[scarey]

I have family photos of my Great grandfather and his brothers and my Great grandmothers family around 1915. Hopefully you all can shed some light on the uniforms/insignia/unit as I don't know much about WWI. They are all from the Saxony in the Erzgebirge region. Thanks in advance!

[FROGSMILE]

Expert forum members @GreyC and @AOK4 might well be able to help you as soon as they see this.  They are a very interesting set of photographs.

Edited 15 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[scarey]

Thanks looking forward to hearing what they think! Would love to know what that patch could be on my Great grandfathers sleeve.

[GreyC]

Hi,

@bierast is the goto guy here, I guess. The two soldiers with the 102 are from IR 102 from Zittau. https://wiki.genealogy.net/IR_102

The lighter coloured uniform is the field grey version, the darker one the so called Bunter Rock. The one sporting the IC 2nd class may also be Saxon. Unfortunately the flaps are not pictured sharp enough for me to discern the number. It could be the Schützen-Rgt. 108 if he is Saxon. But I am unsure. The patch on the arm is too dark to make out. The size and form seem unusual and don´t fit anything I know off-hand. There were unofficial or semi-official patches for signalers, soldiers of small minethrowing units andmachine-gunners that were roundish in shape and of black or dark base colour.

GreyC

 

Edited 15 July , 2023 by GreyC

[bierast]

On 15/07/2023 at 21:39, GreyC said:

@bierast is the goto guy here, I guess. The two soldiers with the 102 are from IR 102 from Zittau. https://wiki.genealogy.net/IR_102

I'm glad to be of assistance... nice family pictures!  

'102' in wartime does not necessarily mean IR 102. As per the mobilisation plans, RIR 102 and LIR 102 were both formed in August 1914. as well as Brigade-Ersatz-Bataillon 63 (which had two companies in IR 102 uniform and two in IR 103 uniform). It narrows down a bit if we look solely at units on the Saxon home front which wore the pre-war 'bunte' Uniform of IR 102:

(I.) Ers.-Batl. / IR 102 - Zittau
II. Ers. Batl. / IR 102 (21.2.1915 - 25.4.17) - Löbau

Ers. Batl. / RIR 101 (photos show old uniforms with '102' being worn in 1914) - Zittau

II. Ers.-Batl. / RIR 102 (?.1917 onwards, previously based at Breslau) - Freiberg

Ers.-Batl. / LIR 102 (Rekrutendepot only) - Dresden-Radeburg

Field unit can only be guessed at; none of these Ersatztruppenteile provided replacements for just one regiment, as new regiments without Ersatz-Bataillonen of their own were already being formed as early as September 1914.

Quote

The lighter coloured uniform is the field grey version, the darker one the so called Bunter Rock. The one sporting the IC 2nd class may also be Saxon. Unfortunately the flaps are not pictured sharp enough for me to discern the number. It could be the Schützen-Rgt. 108 if he is Saxon. But I am unsure.

I think the shoulderstraps are those of IR 104, but I'm not certain. Definitely looks like a crown over a cypher.

 

Quote

The patch on the arm is too dark to make out. The size and form seem unusual and don´t fit anything I know off-hand. There were unofficial or semi-official patches for signalers, soldiers of small minethrowing units andmachine-gunners that were roundish in shape and of black or dark base colour.

As far as Saxon units go, I've seen the oval arm badges for Minenwerfer, Scheinwerfer (searchlight) and signals units. For most of the war, all Saxon signals units had the same shoulderstraps ('T7') and used these arm badges to identify individual formations. They are usually much easier to read - it almost looks like this one has been deliberately censored, and the shoulderstraps also appear blank... very odd indeed.

Edited 17 July , 2023 by bierast

[bierast]

I am not certain that this Gefreiter's shoulderstraps read '102'... could well be '182' or '192', both of which were Saxon infantry regiments.

[GreyC]

3 hours ago, bierast said:

Scheinwerfer (searchlight)

Good idea to call you in on this. I don´t know if you mean the same (rare) Scheinwerfer batch that I have in mind, though, the one I have in mind is base coloured in field grey. Here an example from my collection. I agree with '182' or '192' beeing a possibility from the look of it.

GreyC

 

Edited 16 July , 2023 by GreyC

[GreyC]

3 hours ago, bierast said:

I think the shoulderstraps are those of IR 104, but I'm not certain.

IR 106 with an outside chance. Also crown and cipher and Saxon.

GreyC

Edited 16 July , 2023 by GreyC

[bierast]

16 minutes ago, GreyC said:

Good idea to call you in on this. I don´t know if you mean the same (rare) Scheinwerfer batch that I have in mind, though, the one I have in mind is base coloured in field grey. Here an example from my collection.

I was thinking of this (below), from my own collection - I was outbid on another from the same unit (Scheinwerferzug des Pionier-Bataillons 12) which also showed this insignia and was dated August 1916. On the right sleeve too... very odd! Sadly we have only a handful of identifiable photos of Saxon Scheinwerfer personnel, so we really have no idea how widespread the use of this type of insignia by these units may have been. However there is another photo saved in my system (one of Juergen's I think) from Saxon Scheinwerferzug 253 which shows exactly the same circular (left) sleeve badge as your own picture.

 

[charlie2]

If you want to share their names it might be possible to provide a bit more information.

Charlie

[GreyC]

4 hours ago, bierast said:

I was thinking of this (below)

Very interesting. I haven´t seen this before.

GreyC

[scarey]

Thank you for all the great replies and info!

[bierast]

17 hours ago, GreyC said:

IR 106 with an outside chance. Also crown and cipher and Saxon.

The IR 106 cypher (see below) is symmetrical with rounded shapes at the sides which are very distinctive, even in a partial view. Having squinted at countless partial views of Saxon shoulderstraps in photos over the years, I'm strongly inclined to think this one is IR 104.

[bierast]

12 hours ago, GreyC said:

Very interesting. I haven´t seen this before.

Looking at the materials in my system, I must admit that the Scheinwerferzug identification is not definitively proven - but we do have examples of the sleeve insignia for Saxon Minenwerfer units, and they always seem to include the all-important letters 'MW'. The unit wearing the 'SZ 12' sleeve badge definitely wore it on Pionier-Bataillon 12 uniform, so Scheinwerferzug / PB 12 appeared to be the only logical possibility.

[GreyC]

Makes sense to me!

GreyC

[scarey]

16 hours ago, charlie2 said:

If you want to share their names it might be possible to provide a bit more information.

Charlie

 

No problem, hopefully this helps.

In this photo L to R in uniform.

Willy(Wilhelm), Fritz(seated, my Great Grandfather) and Karl. Last name of Grässler but on immigration list its Grassler and once here Grahsler.

 

 

[charlie2]

1 hour ago, scarey said:

hopefully this helps.

Thanks, did they come from Lößnitz?

[scarey]

1 minute ago, charlie2 said:

Thanks, did they come from Lößnitz?

Yes Lößnitz/Alberoda area.

[charlie2]

It might be just chance and not be your relations, in the casualty lists there are a Gefreiter Willy Gräßler IR192, Friedrich RIR102 and Karl with a partial DoB of 4.10. all from Lößnitz 

http://des.genealogy.net/eingabe-verlustlisten/search

Charlie

[scarey]

53 minutes ago, charlie2 said:

It might be just chance and not be your relations, in the casualty lists there are a Gefreiter Willy Gräßler IR192, Friedrich RIR102 and Karl with a partial DoB of 4.10. all from Lößnitz 

http://des.genealogy.net/eingabe-verlustlisten/search

Charlie

Oh wow, thank you. I will have to ask my family if they were aware of any of his brothers being injured.  

Earlier it was mentioned that Willys insignia could 182 or 192 which listed there.

"am not certain that this Gefreiter's shoulderstraps read '102'... could well be '182' or '192', both of which were Saxon infantry regiments."

 

[GreyC]

4 hours ago, scarey said:

Grahsler

in old German = Graßler today.

GreyC

 

Edited 17 July , 2023 by GreyC

[bierast]

2 hours ago, scarey said:

Oh wow, thank you. I will have to ask my family if they were aware of any of his brothers being injured.  

Earlier it was mentioned that Willys insignia could 182 or 192 which listed there.

"am not certain that this Gefreiter's shoulderstraps read '102'... could well be '182' or '192', both of which were Saxon infantry regiments."

Yes, Willy's two entries much up well with the photo. It appears that he had previously been in 5. Kompagnie / Schützen-Regiment 108, and was wounded (lightly) for the first time on 4th April 1915 (I think the date of 30th August 1914 alongside it refers to the two other 5. Kompagnie men listed below Willy, who are both recorded as captured - something which was often reported very late, as it could take a very long time to confirm that a man had definitely survived as a P.o.W.). He was already a Gefreiter at that point.
http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/1824054

There's nothing in the regimental history about 4th April 1915. However it is stated that the French began shelling the forward positions of SR 108 very heavily on 3rd April, probably in retaliation for a highly successful early morning raid by 2. Kompagnie (six prisoners taken, French 129 RI identified) on 31st March.

My Great-Grandfather was with the divisional artillery in the same sector, so the first three chapters of his story are relevant to Willy's...
https://www.royalsaxonarmy.co.uk/index.php/articles/42-my-great-grandfather-s-war

I believe that Willy returned to SR 108 before 6th July 1915, because that was when IR 192 was formed at Sissonne. Its personnel consisted of drafts donated by seven different regiments of Saxon XII. Armeekorps (i.e. donations taken directly from the actual field regiments, not their Ersatz-Bataillonen at home), one of which was SR 108. IR 192 also included a further draft of fresh recruits from Saxony and - inexplicably - a draft of the fitter men from Prussian Landsturm-Infanterie-Bataillon Geldern VII. 61 (probably replaced by Saxons ca. 1917, but I've not verified that). Willy was probably with 8. Kompagnie / IR 192 (as per his second Verlusteliste entry) from this point.

IR 192 was created to be part of the independent 192. Infanterie-Brigade alongside Prussian IR 193 and Bavarian bIR 25 (the brigade staff and all support units were Saxon). This brigade spent the rest of the year variously on the Aisne and Champagne fronts, and saw heavy fighting in the Champagne that autumn. In March 1916 it was committed to the Battle of Verdun, and IR 192 was one of only a few Saxon infantry regiments to play a major part in the fighting. By the time of Willy's second Verlusteliste entry, the Germans were no longer specifying dates of actions (let alone locations, as they had originally done in 1914!). It's the list for 20th May 1916, so probably reflects losses from a few weeks earlier - the roll of honour for IR 192 unfortunately doesn't give death dates, but one man from 6. Komp. / IR 192 is listed as dying in hospital on 27th April in this same 20th May 1916 Verlusteliste. 

As of 16th April IR 192 held the sector of Bois d'Avocourt / Avocourt-Wald. Willy's battalion (II. Batl. / IR 192) went into the line there for the first time on the night of 18th-19th April, and it was a particularly hellish ordeal according to the regimental history. The task of the regiment was 'just' trench-holding, but the conditions were horrendously muddy and the casualties from sickness alone significant. Obviously there was also a great deal of shelling, rifle fire and hand grenade exchanges, but no-one was actively trying to attack.

In the course of this, Willy was severely wounded at some point. This was probably his Heimatschuss ('Blighty one'). There is nothing to indicate whether he ever returned to service with IR 192 or another combat unit.
http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/3865478

I'll have a proper look at the others when I've got time.

[scarey]

@bierast that's a wealth if information! Thank you, never thought I'd get to know that much about my Great grandfathers brother.

[scarey]

Are there any good vendors of original wwi militaria as I'd like to look for some saxon items now. Also are there any good reproduction vendors that would carry similar uniforms as in the photo, what would the bunter rock appear like in color?

[bierast]

1 hour ago, scarey said:

Are there any good vendors of original wwi militaria as I'd like to look for some saxon items now. Also are there any good reproduction vendors that would carry similar uniforms as in the photo, what would the bunter rock appear like in color?

I don't collect original uniform items (bar the odd Schulterklappe), but I do know some Saxon collectors. As far as I am aware any repro Bunte, Feldgrau or Grüngrau (for SR 108, same as the Prussian and Saxon Jägers) uniform in Saxon cut would have to be individually tailored - there is no mass manufacture. I can unreservedly recommend Bernd Fehrle (Bekleidungsamt XIII) as the best for WW1 German tailoring, and he has all the patterns and the proper Feldgrau and Grüngrau fabric. I don't know who to recommend currently for Bunte Saxon uniforms, but I could ask around. 

The Waffenrock for the Saxon infantry was the same dark 'Prussian' blue as the other contingents, with red collar and cuffs. Uniquely Saxon features include the red piping along the bottom edge of the skirt, the square cut of the false pocket flaps on the backside and the style of the cuffs.



SR 108 had a unique, very dark green Waffenrock with black collar and cuffs. They also wore the Saxon Tschako (with black horsehair plume) in place of the Pickelhaube.