Did Soldiers get a Pension?

[fumblina]

I'm sneaking in on a technicality as this is for a soldier on Section D reserves that got medically discharged in 1914 when called up, rather than someone that served in the war but I'm thinking people here will have the info for the right time period.

Did ordinary soldiers get pension or payment on discharge and if so what were the conditions around that?

Pte Arthur Carver served his 12 years with the Colours finishing in 1910.  He then joined the reserves a month later.

When he was given a medical discharge in 1914 it assesses his "capacity for earning a full livelihood in the general labour market" and puts it at one quarter.  I don't know if that means his earning capacity is reduced by 1/4 or he could earn only 25% of a healthy man - but I am thinking that they must be assessing for some kind of payment, otherwise why would they bother recording it.  

Other than his Section D pay of 6d per day and training day payments, would he have been entitled to any other money, or his widow (until she remarried) and children after his death in 1916? Also if children got payments after his death would this include his stepson who was on his forms as a dependent?

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Carver-5359

Many thanks,

[FROGSMILE]

On 14/07/2023 at 19:33, fumblina said:

I'm sneaking in on a technicality as this is for a soldier on Section D reserves that got medically discharged in 1914 when called up, rather than someone that served in the war but I'm thinking people here will have the info for the right time period.

Did ordinary soldiers get pension or payment on discharge and if so what were the conditions around that?

Pte Arthur Carver served his 12 years with the Colours finishing in 1910.  He then joined the reserves a month later.

When he was given a medical discharge in 1914 it assesses his "capacity for earning a full livelihood in the general labour market" and puts it at one quarter.  I don't know if that means his earning capacity is reduced by 1/4 or he could earn only 25% of a healthy man - but I am thinking that they must be assessing for some kind of payment, otherwise why would they bother recording it.  

Other than his Section D pay of 6d per day and training day payments, would he have been entitled to any other money, or his widow (until she remarried) and children after his death in 1916? Also if children got payments after his death would this include his stepson who was on his forms as a dependent?

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Carver-5359

Many thanks,

@fumblina There were two types of pension for a soldier at that time (1919).  The long-standing one was the service pension for regular soldiers (only) who served for 21 years (a full career).  The second was a disability or what was described as a ‘war pension’ for men whose bodies were wrecked by military service, but these were only possible if they met stringent conditions and often only lasted for a set period.  Only the permanent loss of a limb, or worse, tended to attract continuous pension payments until the individual dependent passed away.  These were determined under a scale assessed by a percentage measurement of disability, with things such as the loss of individual limbs, and / or eyes being scored on an ascending scale.  The higher the percentage of disability the greater the financial remuneration.

Edited 16 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[stevenbecker]

The same in the AIF, but our pensions were reduced during the 20's and 30's

Soldiers who won medals (VC DSO MC DCM MM)  could also get a pension

I am unsure if the British also did this?

S.B

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

The same in the AIF, but our pensions were reduced during the 20's and 30's

Soldiers who won medals (VC DSO MC DCM MM)  could also get a pension

I am unsure if the British also did this?

S.B

Yes Steve, it was ‘the British’ who established those protocols of award in the first place.  The AIF, as an imperial force, along with New Zealand, Canada and South Africa, were merely observing the same practice.  It was a unified way of doing things.

Edited 16 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[schooner]

On 16/07/2023 at 03:38, FROGSMILE said:

@fumblina There were two types of pension for a soldier at that time (1919).  The long-standing one was the service pension for regular soldiers (only) who served for 21 years (a full career).  The second was a disability or what was described as a ‘war pension’ for men whose bodies were wrecked by military service, but these were only possible if they met stringent conditions and often only lasted for a set period.  Only the permanent loss of a limb, or worse, tended to attract continuous pension payments until the individual dependent passed away.  These were determined under a scale assessed by a percentage measurement of disability, with things such as the loss of individual limbs, and / or eyes being scored on an ascending scale.  The higher the percentage of disability the greater the financial remuneration.

What was the pension for a regular who served for a full career? Was it enough to ensure that they weren't forced to find further employment in retirement?

[FROGSMILE]

45 minutes ago, schooner said:

What was the pension for a regular who served for a full career? Was it enough to ensure that they weren't forced to find further employment in retirement?

You would need to examine the Royal Pay Warrant that was issued and amended from time-to-time to get the exact amount, but it was not generous and for the lowest ranks equated to approximately a labourers wage.

Edited 20 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[fumblina]

 

On 15/07/2023 at 18:38, FROGSMILE said:

@fumblina There were two types of pension for a soldier at that time (1919).  The long-standing one was the service pension for regular soldiers (only) who served for 21 years (a full career).  The second was a disability or what was described as a ‘war pension’ for men whose bodies were wrecked by military service, but these were only possible if they met stringent conditions and often only lasted for a set period.  Only the permanent loss of a limb, or worse, tended to attract continuous pension payments until the individual dependent passed away.  These were determined under a scale assessed by a percentage measurement of disability, with things such as the loss of individual limbs, and / or eyes being scored on an ascending scale.  The higher the percentage of disability the greater the financial remuneration.

Thank you for that Frogsmile.

On that basis, he would not have got anything on completing his time with the colours, which would explain him signing up to the reserves, but would have got something on medical discharge, presumably the 1/4 being an indication of how much he would have received.  And nothing for wife or dependents after death, no wonder they always remarried so quickly.

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, fumblina said:

 

Thank you for that Frogsmile.

On that basis, he would not have got anything on completing his time with the colours, which would explain him signing up to the reserves, but would have got something on medical discharge, presumably the 1/4 being an indication of how much he would have received.  And nothing for wife or dependents after death, no wonder they always remarried so quickly.

Yes I think you have summarised the situation very well.  Regular Army widowed wives of all ranks were renowned for remarrying very quickly indeed. 

[Matlock1418]

On 14/07/2023 at 19:33, fumblina said:

When he was given a medical discharge in 1914 it assesses his "capacity for earning a full livelihood in the general labour market" and puts it at one quarter.  I don't know if that means his earning capacity is reduced by 1/4 or he could earn only 25% of a healthy man - but I am thinking that they must be assessing for some kind of payment, otherwise why would they bother recording it.  

The Wiki page gives his regimental number previously as Leicestershire Regt 5368 [Regular] and 6692 [Militia]

• Confirmation of his regimental number at discharge may be useful.
• Always interesting to see an image(s) of such a discharge entry(ies)

May potentially lead to other pension records [?? ... In hope]

M

[Matlock1418]

On 14/07/2023 at 19:33, fumblina said:

Other than his Section D pay of 6d per day and training day payments, would he have been entitled to any other money, or his widow (until she remarried) and children after his death in 1916? Also if children got payments after his death would this include his stepson who was on his forms as a dependent?

I'm afraid I don't have access to his military/pension files you seem to have referred to so, as above, some further access/info may assist

• What date in 1914 was he discharged?
• What condition(s), other than just unfit for service, was he discharged with? - Any link to service?
• What cause/condition(s) did he die from? - Any link to service?

There were several Royal Warrants from before and after his service and death, each covering several pensionable situations with varing criteria and quanta.  By 1914 men and their dependants were to get the more beneficial of the relevant provisions and there should be no reassessment to their disadvantage.

Taking from 1914 for 'War Pension' / not "Service Pension" purposes [which as has been mentioned by @FROGSMILE required significant service time for the latter] - As established, after the Royal Warrant from 1 April 1914: Disability pensions after medical discharge were only payable to the man if the condition(s) was attributable to, or aggravated by, ordinary military service. At a proprtionate rate according to his degree of disability and his former paid acting rank.  The man could also receive for a child(ren) an allowance(s), also at a proportion reflecting the man's disability degree and number of children [typically paid to their age 16 or occasionally 21 - beyond the oldest further children got a stepped lower rate] - nothing for a wife then [that only came in/after 1919].

1916 Death pensions - Dependant's(s') pension widow's and child(ren)'s allowance(s) were only payable if the cause of death was from a condition(s) which was attributed to, or aggravated by, military service.

Step-child(ren) could be payable, providing there was proven prior dependancy shown.  Payment of a Separation Allowance(s) for them would be a good pre-cursor indicator.

Both sorts of war pension and allowance rates were variable according to a number of factors but generally increasing over the years and, if applicable, could be increased as an Alternative Pension if proven average pre-war earnings were an improvement on the standard rates.

And, by 1916 there could be a widow's age supplement if she was over 34yo. [to reflect potential; reduced re-marriagablity]. Remarriage lost a widow her pension but child(ren)'s allowance(s) could continue to be paid to her.  Remarriage before 1918 would offer a one-off lump-sum gratuity of two year's pension instead.

Unfortunately most disability pension files and dependants' files have been lost, usually deliberately destroyed after their use was ended - we can generally now only further hope for pension index card(s) and/or pension ledger page(s) at WFA/Fold3.

M

[fumblina]

4 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

I'm afraid I don't have access to his military/pension files you seem to have referred to so, as above, some further access/info may assist

• What date in 1914 was he discharged?
• What condition(s), other than just unfit for service, was he discharged with? - Any link to service?
• What cause/condition(s) did he die from? - Any link to service?

He completed 12 years with the colours and then signed up for Section D reserves in 1910.  He served in Boer War 1900-02 and then spent time in India. My profile of him talks about his discharge as follows:

A few months shy of the end of Arthur's four years term with the the reserves, World War One breaks out. He is mobilised at Leicester on 5 August 1914, but discharged the next day having failed a medical, having been found unfit for further military service.

The record of the medical board proceedings gave additional details. He is described as having Neurasthenia, a nervous disorder, having first got ill about Easter that year while in Nottingham. He reported having "got into a very nervous state about 4 months ago." He is reported as currently very anaemic and shaky.

It is assessed as that his capacity for earning a full livelihood in the general labour market is a quarter. It is not clear whether that means it has been reduced by a quarter or reduced to a quarter. It is agreed that his disability has not been 'aggravated by intemperance or misconduct'. The fact that they are assessing his future earning capacity and whether or not his is responsible for it implies that he may have been eligible for pension payments but these are not mentioned in the records I have seen.

Neurasthenia a condition with symptoms of fatigue, anxiety, headache, heart palpitations, high blood pressure, neuralgia, and depressed mood.

He died in Q1 1916.

The records are on Ancestry. I don't think I can attach images due to copyright but the pension and medical records are under #5368

[FROGSMILE]

30 minutes ago, fumblina said:

He completed 12 years with the colours and then signed up for Section D reserves in 1910.  He served in Boer War 1900-02 and then spent time in India. My profile of him talks about his discharge as follows:

A few months shy of the end of Arthur's four years term with the the reserves, World War One breaks out. He is mobilised at Leicester on 5 August 1914, but discharged the next day having failed a medical, having been found unfit for further military service.

The record of the medical board proceedings gave additional details. He is described as having Neurasthenia, a nervous disorder, having first got ill about Easter that year while in Nottingham. He reported having "got into a very nervous state about 4 months ago." He is reported as currently very anaemic and shaky.

It is assessed as that his capacity for earning a full livelihood in the general labour market is a quarter. It is not clear whether that means it has been reduced by a quarter or reduced to a quarter. It is agreed that his disability has not been 'aggravated by intemperance or misconduct'. The fact that they are assessing his future earning capacity and whether or not his is responsible for it implies that he may have been eligible for pension payments but these are not mentioned in the records I have seen.

Neurasthenia a condition with symptoms of fatigue, anxiety, headache, heart palpitations, high blood pressure, neuralgia, and depressed mood.

He died in Q1 1916.

The records are on Ancestry. I don't think I can attach images due to copyright but the pension and medical records are under #5368

I think that was a very wise presiding medical officer quite early in the war assessing that your subject was effectively worn out and unfit for mobilised service.  This was probably before the boards came under extreme pressure to wave through as many men with service experience as possible, even when marginal.

Edited 30 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

Thanks for replying 

Unfortunately I don't have such access to Ancestry or that record

Nuerasthenia was sometimes called an emotional-shock/disturbance [as opposed to a commotional-shock/disturbance caused by a physical percussive event - both could later be loosely called "Shell Shock", but especially for OR - Officers usually had Neurasthenia!] and I think could manifest itself some time after an adverse event(s) and as such was unlikely to directly cause a death, though sadly we do know some sufferers did subsequently end their own lives.

= Do you have a record of his cause of death?  A DC would be most authoritative.  If necessary a PDF version DC can be quite quickly obtained from GRO [E&W] via https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp for £7 iirc [I'm rather presuming he died in Nottingham, aged 36]

Name:                     Age at Death (in years):  

CARVER, ARTHUR    36  

GRO Reference: 1916  M Quarter in NOTTINGHAM  Volume 07B  Page 410

Unfortunately I also cannot find any pension records at WFA/Fold 3 using either of his numbers [so currently struggling to expand on any pension that might have arisen should such a condition be related to his service or his death]

M

Edited Friday at 13:50 by Matlock1418
typos