Help Identifying Rifle and its stamps

[guito13]

Hi All,

I am new here but have been reading several threads and it seems like there is a great group of knowledgeable people here.  I recently acquired an Australian Short Lee Enfield that has obviously been modified (Duffle Cut?).  The stock has a stamp of 1943.  There are SEVERAL stamps all over the weapon.  I am trying to get an idea of the history behind it.  I know NOTHING about historical firearms, only modern.  I am not even sure what caliber it is.  I think it may be .303 and I do have several original full clips of ammo.  

ANYTHING you can provide would be appreciated so I can fully understand the story behind her.  I am sure she's not worth much in this condition but it has sentimental value to me so its priceless as is the story.

Thank you in advance!

 

(Ill add more images in the following replies to this thread)

[guito13]

[tankengine888]

Hello and welcome to the forum!

Looks like a Short Magazine Lee Enfield
I see a Lithgow marking, I think that means its an Australian Issue.

The SMLE loads .303, 9 in the magazine and 1 up the spout.

Zidane.

Edited 8 July , 2023 by tankengine888
Unsure if converted for hunters - might be missing the wood.

[guito13]

[guito13]

Thank you tankengine888!

I agree that it started life as such.  Thing is, it appears to be modified.  The numbers don't match (I added more pictures) and the butt is marked 1943.  I was told that it shoots .308 but I cannot confirm until I find someone who can properly measure the barrel for me.  Thing is .308, from what I have learned, was not around until the 50's.  I think it is probably .303 British but again, need to confirm it.  There has to be a story on this gun.  Trying to get as much of it together using what information we have.

[4thGordons]

The rifle has had the furniture (wood) cut down, probably for use a a hunting rifle - this is very common and was done to lots of rifles when they were common, cheap and all over the place)

It is as noted an Australian PRODUCED (Lithgow)  Short, Magazine Lee Enfield (SMLE) MkIII* (mark three star) I am not sure if the date is 1918 or 1919 but the A prefixed serial number would indicate it is a later 1918 rifle - as previous Lithgow production rifles did not have a letter prefix. A was used as a prefix on rifles dated 1918-1922

It was FTR'd (Factory Thorough Refinish) in Australia in 1950 (the MA/50 stamp) and it might well have been refinished previously during WWII also - the stock is WWII vintage as marked (1943) the cocking piece is also marked 1943. (OA 43)

If you remove the short upper hand-guard (it is just held in place by spring clips) you will find some more stamping (and the serial number repeated and possibly a barrel date)

The magazine capacity is actually 10 not 9,

I would be very surprised if it has been modified to .308 but it is imperative that you check. (There were Enfields produced in 7.62mm in India but these are marked quite differently)

The ammunition you show with the rifle is .303 manufactured by Radway Green (and it looks to be 1950 vintage)

Chris

 

 

[4thGordons]

Here is my 1919 Lithgow

and some either side date wise

[MrEd]

5 hours ago, guito13 said:

Thank you tankengine888!

I agree that it started life as such.  Thing is, it appears to be modified.  The numbers don't match (I added more pictures) and the butt is marked 1943.  I was told that it shoots .308 but I cannot confirm until I find someone who can properly measure the barrel for me.  Thing is .308, from what I have learned, was not around until the 50's.  I think it is probably .303 British but again, need to confirm it.  There has to be a story on this gun.  Trying to get as much of it together using what information we have.

It could have been modified to .308 or something in the 50’s, as I think Australia outlawed military calibres for a time, so a lot were converted to calibres other than 303 IIRC. 
 

I will check the skennerton book as I think it’s detailed in there, I have definitely read that somewhere though. 
 

EDIT: not read it in the skennerton book, can’t remember where I read it but definitely have relatively recently, and recall it was NSW and around 1948 that military calibres were banned and many rifles converted 

Edited 8 July , 2023 by MrEd

[guito13]

1 hour ago, 4thGordons said:

The rifle has had the furniture (wood) cut down, probably for use a a hunting rifle - this is very common and was done to lots of rifles when they were common, cheap and all over the place)

It is as noted an Australian PRODUCED (Lithgow)  Short, Magazine Lee Enfield (SMLE) MkIII* (mark three star) I am not sure if the date is 1918 or 1919 but the A prefixed serial number would indicate it is a later 1918 rifle - as previous Lithgow production rifles did not have a letter prefix. A was used as a prefix on rifles dated 1918-1922

It was FTR'd (Factory Thorough Refinish) in Australia in 1950 (the MA/50 stamp) and it might well have been refinished previously during WWII also - the stock is WWII vintage as marked (1943) the cocking piece is also marked 1943. (OA 43)

If you remove the short upper hand-guard (it is just held in place by spring clips) you will find some more stamping (and the serial number repeated and possibly a barrel date)

The magazine capacity is actually 10 not 9,

I would be very surprised if it has been modified to .308 but it is imperative that you check. (There were Enfields produced in 7.62mm in India but these are marked quite differently)

The ammunition you show with the rifle is .303 manufactured by Radway Green (and it looks to be 1950 vintage)

Chris

 

 

Thank you very much.  I agree on the ammo being .303 as from what I read, Radway Green, never produced .308.  I am learning more but I am leaning (in my very novice opinion) that it was sportorized.  I will find someone with the proper gauges and have them check the barrel for sure.

I am curious if it was used in WWII in some way due to the stock dates.  I don't think it saw action in WWI due to the date though.  

I will check the upper hand guard in a bit here to see what I can find and will share it here.

Again, thank you!

20 minutes ago, MrEd said:

It could have been modified to .308 or something in the 50’s, as I think Australia outlawed military calibres for a time, so a lot were converted to calibres other than 303 IIRC. 
 

I will check the skennerton book as I am sure it’s detailed in there, I have definitely read that somewhere though 

Thank you MrEd, it is appreciated.

 

Question to both of you.  Does it have any real value or is it essentially a good story and a wall hanger? It appears to be in pretty good shape.  Either way I am going to have it looked over by someone way smarter than me to see if its in fireable condition.  I would love to put a few rounds down it at some point!

[4thGordons]

.308 / 7.62mm are not rimmed cases so for sure not .308, and the markings are consistent with .303 ammunition (as is the charger clip)

If it has been converted to .308 you would be able to tell by the chamber/extractor and it would certainly be marked - or should be!) I am pretty certain that the stamping on the barrel knox for (under the handguard) will show it is a Lithgow barrel probably dated 1950 but possibly earlier if it was in good shape. As noted I would be surprised if it has been altered beyond cutting down the wood.

Value questions are difficult - depends where in the world you are and what you mean by "value" (monetary/historical etc)

Assuming it is in it's original calibre (.303) and safe to shoot with a good bore  - it would be a functional reliable firearm and thus would have some monetary value.

You should definitely have it checked by a knowledgeable gunsmith before firing it - that goes without saying (BTW finding a gunsmith who is knowledgeable about Enfields is actually getting harder outside of the UK/Canada (and even there they are fewer these days) - but given it was restored to like new status in 1950 it has probably not seen super heavy use since. Unfortunately it could have been shot with corrosive ammunition and then not cleaned properly and that will damage a bore very quickly - this is common) I believe the RG ammunition you show with it is corrosive. (Cleaning is easy but it has to be done as the corrosive salts start attacking the bore very quickly)

If you remove the bolt (position the bolt head over the spring clip and then push upwards then withdraw the bolt to the rear) you can look through and see the condition of the bore. 

You don't show it but is the bolt numbered to the rifle? (it should be numbered on the rear flat of the bolt handle)

It could be restored to its original appearance although that would probably cost more than the resultant "restored" rifle would be worth to most people - in either current or restored state it does not have much "collector" value (although this depends on the collector of course - I have several rifles like this!)

In terms of Historical interest - again it depends what you mean.

Your rifle is not scarce (although 1919 dates are less common than some others) - Lithgow produced 67,000 rifles between 1919 and 1922 and total production at Lithgow was lower than some of the manufacturers (around 640,000 between 1913 and 1952)

Though far from unique it is a pretty good distillation of the the type's history - produced in WWI/at the end of WWI - probably issued in some capacity in WWII (possibly refurbed) - refurbished again in 1950 (the type continued to be used in Korea by Australian forces), and then probably sold off as surplus thereafter and modified/lightened by having the wood cut down for civilian/hunting use. If it is in good condition it is probably an accurate weapon today 104 years after it was produced. 

Chris 

 

[MikB]

I don't think a .308/7,62 x 51 case will fit in a .303 chamber as the diameter at the shoulder's larger. So if you can't close the bolt on a .308 empty, it's hugely more likely 303.

But still get it checked  before shooting anything in it.🙂

Edited 8 July , 2023 by MikB

[Mattr82]

It’s highly unlikely that it’s been rechambered in .308. Post WW2, 303 ammunition was in plenty and .308 wasn’t even a popular cartridge until the 1970s onwards. That being said, I can’t see or touch the rifle so always pays to get someone knowledgeable with these rifles to check them out.

Regarding the rifles service use, it almost certainly was used in WW2. Australia was struggling for enough rifles early in the war to the point that older rifles and rifles that were obsolete were being used to train the troops for deployment. In my opinion, it probably saw use overseas early in the war. 
 

I have an opinion about the 1950s refurbs….they were done for the National Service Scheme.

Those stamped MA/ followed by the year they were FTRd, were done at the Lithgow Factory and not at a base level ordnance depot and it’s these rifles that were FTRd for the National Service Scheme and stamped D^D for Army elements and A^F for the Air Force elements of the NS Scheme.
Rifles that had not been refurbed post WW2 were given new barrels and sometimes wood etc in order to have quality rifles to train thousands of soldiers.

Rifles that were used in Korea etc were refurbed in Sydney at either Moorebank or other smaller base depots where they were not marked FTR or marked to a service such as D^D as they were already issued to permanent forces etc.

Edited 9 July , 2023 by Mattr82

[4thGordons]

1 hour ago, Mattr82 said:

I

I have an opinion about the 1950s refurbs….they were done for the National Service Scheme.

 

I bow to your greater knowledge on this --what you say makes total sense - all I meant was given the need for rifles in Korea and and domestic military need (training etc)  rifles were refurbed '49-52 in quite large numbers

I did not mean to imply it was used in Korea (or overseas in WWII for that matter although that is more likely)

Chris

 

[Mattr82]

Was not going against anything you had to say! Your knowledge and input is utterly valuable!

my reference to NS was based solely upon the D^D and A^F markings on FTRd rifles. The NS Scheme ran from 1951 to 1959, and the observation of MA/50 to MA/59 for me is an indication of the start and end of rifle returns for this. The size of the permanent forces was quite small at this time which is why the Korean War rifles (we will call them that I guess) can be observed by no ownership marks and 1950s rebarreling at ordnance depots but without any MA VIII on the barrels (indicating barrels put on at factory) as well as other dates indicating refurbs.

Im happy to pass onto you copies of the history of the Australian Ordnance Corps. They’re not something I would usually read at all as I’m a former infantry soldier, but they are quite detailed when it comes to the problems of procuring weapons and refurbishment. This goes into a lot of detail from the mobilisation of the first Australian imperial force all the way up to the 1980s. They are a pretty interesting read and have informed my knowledge of the Lee Enfield in-service a great deal.

Edited 9 July , 2023 by Mattr82

[guito13]

You guys are amazing.  I think this forum will be a great place for me to read and learn from.  Thank you very much!

[Chasemuseum]

19 hours ago, MrEd said:

Australia outlawed military calibres for a time

Complicated issue. All the way through to 1996, firearm laws were entirely a state issue and different in every state. From the 50s to mid 70s most states restricted the ownership of rifles firing military cartridges. This covered both .303 and 7.62 NATO (.308). As a work around many SMLEs wee sporterized and rebarrelled with calibres like 303/25.

 

Specifically in NSW, through to 1974, no permit or license was needed to own any long rifle or shotgun, unless it was a military calibre. Military calibres could be owned by any member of the NSW Rifle Assn (target rifle clubs), commercial fishermen and farmer/primary producers, but not by collectors, or hunters. The 1974 Act changed that. You then required a "NSW Police Shooters License". My American friends when shown the license would ask was there a specific hunting season ?  Yes the wording on the license was not very clever. Then from 1996 onwards we went to massive restrictions on firearm ownership. Now the rules make the UK look easy. 

[MrEd]

Thanks @Chasemuseum - I have read a bit into it (and New Zealand and Uk) just as a general interest in our gun laws Vs America etc 

 

I won’t go on as will go off topic, but yes very complicated and seems to change at a whim…. 

[Chasemuseum]

19 hours ago, MrEd said:

change at a whim….

you really would not believe. Parts of the regulation are now deferred from Parliament to the NSW Police Commissioner who only has to post a new requirement on the police web site and non-compliance is automatically a criminal offence.

[MrEd]

13 minutes ago, Chasemuseum said:

you really would not believe. Parts of the regulation are now deferred from Parliament to the NSW Police Commissioner who only has to post a new requirement on the police web site and non-compliance is automatically a criminal offence.

Wow, doesn’t seem particularly democratic, more police state 

[guito13]

Somewhat related, found 5 rounds with a different headstamp FM"SF" 7.65 65.  From what I can tell these are mauser rounds.  Anyone have any other info on them?

[4thGordons]

I believe this is a 7.65x65 Argentine made Mauser softpoint (commercial/hunting) round. (SEE HERE)

Chris

[guito13]

Thank you kind sir!

[Chasemuseum]

Also date appears to be 1965, and as the primer cap is brass, the priming composition should be lead azide, rather than mercury fulminate, so the ammunition is non-corrosive priming.

 

If you do not clean a rifle within 24 hours of firing with mercury fulminate primed ammunition you will get serious corrosion damage to the bore.

You should always clean same day after shooting regardless but is much less of an issue with non-corrosive priming.

For the British SMLE in WW1 they used to make a special funnel that fitted into the breach to allow boiling water to be poured through the barrel. Best method of cleaning.

[t.ryan]

guilo13,

Not sure where you call home, so will add a bit more information about the markings on your SMLE rifle.

The A inside the star is an early Lithgow inspectors mark. MA is the Lithgow small arms Factory in country N.S.W., still in the same place today. OA (on cocking piece) is the Orange factory, one of several feeder factory's to Lithgow, situated in the surrounding countryside, along with FA Forbes, BA Bathurst, WA Wellington and probably a couple more. Most of which made parts for the SMLE once WW2 fired up. Lithgow and Orange factory's also made the bayonets for the SMLE.

I doubt that any Lithgow No1 Mk3 rifles were ever converted to 7.62, I started shooting in the early 60's on the big bore range and when the 7.62 ammo was introduced we were told that the No1 Mk3 action was not strong enough to handle the new 7.62 ammo.

The No4 rifle in .303 which was supposed to be a stronger action, was converted to take the 7.62 ammo; but it had to be proof tested and stamped on the action before it was permitted to be used on the range and and many were used filling in the gap until the Omark 7.62 target rifle was introduced.

The No1 Mk3 was a versatile rifle in 303 itself as stated above, and I think nearly every farm in NSW had one, our farm included, cut down just like yours; and every fishing trawler the same for shooting sharks in their nets, but as stated above, not every one could own and use a military calibre rifle.

In other No1 Mk3s, the original barrel was reamed out to take the 410 cartridge. Others with good original 303 barrels were converted to 7.7x54 by screwing the barrel out and removing a couple of mm of the chamber end and re fitting, calling for a slightly shorter cartridge, the 7.7x54 sporting round, I think the .303 was 7.7x56.

This was a cheap way to navigate the law of owning a military rifle that could no longer shoot military rounds, and quickly become available to sporting shooters and hunters with no restrictions. I did see 7.7x54 new brass advertised just recently.

There were many other cartridges and calibres made up by using the original .303 case as a starting case and re chambering a new barrel to fit the No1 Mk3 action, some are still being used today, some of those original ones are listed below.

Cheers,

TR

 

 

[guito13]

Thank you.  It's crazy how strict gun laws are in other places.  I am in the state's.  I actually purchased this item from a garage sale for $250USD which included 100 rounds of the .303 ammo I posted earlier.  It's not overly uncommon to see firearms out for sale at them in the rural are I live.  It's starting to sound like this was a WWII used rifle that was modified at some point after the war.  I just need to get the barrel inspected for condition and caliber.  I really like this rifle and plan on keeping it no matter if I overpaid or underpaid.  The history behind it is worth it to me.  

I only have one other "old" rifle and its a Japanese one (not sure of the make) but it has the symbol in-tact on it.  My grandfather took it home from the war.  Ill be adding this one to the display.