shot down near Samarra 21 April 1918

[stevenbecker]

I notice a passage in the "The War in the Air " vol 6 page 241

"after a raid by 63 Sqn on Fat-Ha Gorge the Germans sent a recee plane which was shot down by a SE5a from 72 Sqn"

The Germans I found, but the Britsh SE5a from 72 Sqn, I couldn't, do your records cover this?

The Germans are (only limited details found)?

Minkovitz or Minkwitz or Minckwitz Hans    ObLt    Observer (Beobachter) Airforce 1917 shown 13th Aircraft Company Tayyare Boluk 4-18    1917-18     (born Leipzig KIA 21-4-18) Saxon Infantry Regt No 7 shown Feldfliegertruppe durch unfall verletzt (injury in accident) verwundet WIA Jan/Feb 1916 to Mesopotamia reported shot down in AEG C4 (AEG8) with Lt Petros (P) on recce of Samarra possibly by Capt Beatty in SE5a (B686) from 72 Sqn RFC 21-4-18 awarded EK 11 & EK 1 (spelling in Ole Nikoljsen)

Petros    Lt    Pilot Airforce to 2nd Aircraft Company Tayyare Boluk 9-17 shown 13th Aircraft Company 4-18     1917-18     (born ? KIA 21-4-18) Mesopotamia with Gröne (O) in raid on British base at Samarra 31-12-17 reported shot down in AEG C4 (AEG8) with Lt Minkovitz (O) on recce of Samarra by an SE5a from 72 Sqn RFC 21-4-18 (spelling in Ole Nikoljsen)

Due to lack of planes and spare parts, both Sqn's/Air Companies Tayyare Boluk were combined

I am still not sure I have the right man called Minckwitz, as another from Dresden is shown Tot around the right date in 1918?

I notice one report that gives Capt Beatty, but The Areodrome site shows this?

Capt. James Stanley Beatty (RFC Special Reserve Lt & RAF Capt) was a
Canadian from Toronto, birthdate 15 October 1890, who joined the RFC in mid-1916 and had several squadron postings prior to his posting to 72 Squadron on 13 August 1918. Perhaps he evaded any formal consequences for the misadventure of 14 September 1918 because of his extensive flight experience and his receipt of the M.C. & Bar.

 

Edited 6 July , 2023 by stevenbecker

[charlie2]

Steve 

The two German officers were

Oltn Hans Minckwitz, FAR32, born 15.08.1892 Dresden and Ltn Erich Petras, Eisenbahn Regt 2, born 27.11.1887 Marienwerder.

Charlie

[charlie962]

Originally posted 72 Squdn March 1918.

RAF Casualty Form

Charlie

[charlie962]

His Service record shows an even earlier date:

Courtesy Findmypast

[topgun1918]

The Citation for his DFC reads:

"Captain James Stanley Beatty, 72nd Squadron.

During the operations neat Sheroat, 24th to 30th October, 1918 he rendered gallant service in harassing the enemy by machine-gun fire from very low altitudes, being vigorously fired upon the whole time.  Captain Beatty has always been conspicuous for gallantry and devotion to duty.  On the 21st April, 1918 he destroyed one enemy machine and brought down another out of control."

I have it that Beatty was flying S.E.5a B686 when he brought down a two-seater north of Samarra on 21 April 1918 and was piloting a Spad (not yet located a serial number) when he claimed an enemy machine out of control.

Graeme

 

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

I am always amazed at what you blokes find.

Charlie, thanks confirming the names in what little sources there are, has been a pain

Do we know where these men are buried, I would have said in Bagdad, but even there I can't confirm?

Graeme, yes its said his second victory was on 31 May 1918, but as yet no one has confirmation on who, what, when or where?

The Areodrome site mentions this

"he claimed an Albatros scout that landed in British territory near Jebers on 31 May 1918; Beatty was in SE5a B685 on this occasio

Since the pilot was said to be a POW there maybe some record of him?

Of cause the only claims are from Schulz (Schüz or Schulze) Hans

some of his claims in 1918

claimed a British plane near Tuz Khurmatli 1-5-18 & claimed a British plane 3-5-18 shown in Albatros D3 shot down a RE 8 around Little Zab Mesopotamia (near Altinköprü (Uzunköprü) Palestine) 15-5-18 & unknown EA in Palestine/Mespot 31-5-18

No German or Ottoman aircraft appears lost around that date?

Graeme I take it your the same bloke as mentioned in the Areodrome site, I notice you gave a number of claims to Mr Pratt

You show

9 May 18 Lt DF Lapraik SE 5a/72 Scout

The bloke maybe this man

Klaus Edwin    Offizier Stellvertreter     Pilot Airforce 1st Aircraft Company Tayyare Boluk 3-17 to 2nd Aircraft Company Tayyare Boluk    1917-18    (1889 at Obergneus died 9-5-18) near El-Humar cause not stated? possibly claimed by Lt DF Lapraik in SE 5a from 72 Sqn RFC a EA Scout in Mesopotamia 9-5-18 (spelling in Ole Nikoljsen)

Edited 6 July , 2023 by stevenbecker

[topgun1918]

Hi Steve

I am indeed the Graeme who posts on the Aerodrome.

Beatty's medal citation specifically mentions two victories on 21 April 1918 (some records suggest three) and in my claims database I have him on S.E.5a B686 when he shot down the two-seater near Samarra and on a Spad when he shot down another out of control that same day - there's a suggestion that he claimed a third victory on 21 April, again in a Spad, but I am of the opinion that this a duplicate of the S.E.5a claim.  I also have Beatty claiming an Albatros scout that came down behind the British lines near Jebers on 31 May, this time while flying S.E.5a B685.

In regards Lieut Douglas Fairlie Lapraik, I have his claim on 9 May 1918 as being achieved north of Fathan; nice to have a suggested victim.

Graeme

 

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Thank you.

One thing did worry me was your mention of the two kills by Cannell

Paulet P    Offizier Stellvertreter    Airforce possibly 2nd Aircraft Company Tayyare Boluk or 13th Aircraft Company Tayyare Boluk    1918-    claimed by LT HG Cannel in SE5a (B635) from 72 Sqn RFC  2x Scouts FTL near Samarra in Mesopotamia 7-7-18 or 27-7-18 (not identified)?

Klockow Paul    Offizier Stellvertreter    Airforce possibly 2nd Aircraft Company Tayyare Boluk or 13th Aircraft Company Tayyare Boluk    1918-    (born at Stargard died ?) shown leicht verwundet 1918 claimed by LT HG Cannel in SE5a (B635) from 72 Sqn RFC  2x Scouts FTL near Samarra in Mesopotamia 7-7-18 or 27-7-18
 

I could not find who Paulet was in any records?

While the only Klockow was one named Paul from Stargard shown wound late 1918

Do you have more on this action as Samarra gets a few mentions 

[charlie2]

3 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

could not find who Paulet was in any records?

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3021770/1/2/

[stevenbecker]

Charlie,

What can I say?

Paulat Fritz Wilhelm    Sgt / VzFeldwebel    (Pilot) Airforce 13th Aircraft Company Tayyare Boluk born 1884

I did have someone much like him on record, but no context, so I didn't make the possible conection

Paulat Friedrich    Flieger    Airforce shown 13th Aircraft Company Tayyare Boluk    1917-18     (born 1888 at Wundlacken Königsberg KIA 18-10-18) gefallen Tot at Aleppo buried at Aleppo Cemetery Syria from Mesopotamia shown leicht verwundet (minor wound) WIA 1917 (@ 6-17) (not identified)

So if they are the same men that is, as the birth dates and different?

Did he died from wounds at Aleppo from the combat in July 1918 or

Died from some illness like many did?

Since the Verlustlisten only mentions gefallen Tot and not Krankheit, then its more likely died of wounds?

Cheers

S.B

[andygkemp]

Nice to see some info on DF Lapraik's possible victim - as he was my uncle. Thanks for that :-)

Has anyone an idea what serial SE5A he was flying? The combat report doesn't give it ...

Andy

[stevenbecker]

Andy,

Its just an idea, as he is the only one I found close to that date.

As Graeme mention its a hard area to research from the German/Ottoman side.

Of cause the two place names are a problem, since I can't find them on any modern maps

El Humar and north of Fathan 

But then again names change over the years, and reporting by pilots of the day is just as mixed up

I mean is El Humar north of Fathan or some other direction?

S.B

[andygkemp]

Well - this needs sorting! Where did "uncle" get his victory?

According to the combat reports, the fight was between Fathah and Humr, north of Tikrit.

9th Middlesex War Diary:

On 26 October 1918, the brigade patrolled forward up the left bank of the Tigris and the right bank of the Little Zab, and demonstrated towards Humr Bridge, to make the Turks think that a crossing was planned.

Corps History of the Royal Engineers, Vol 7:

On 24 October 1918 ... gave the enemy time to reorganize in their next prepared position at Humr where the Little Zab enters the Tigris. The construction of a pontoon bridge by No. 2 Bridging Train at the Fat-ha gorge eased some of the difficulties of supply and communication across the Tigris ... Little Zab,  and they began to vacate their  trenches  and cross the Tigris by  a bridge  to their  right-bank positions  covering Humr and running thence  northwards for some  miles.  The Humr position  was of  great natural strength and held by 7,000  men with forty-two guns.

I read it that "Fathah" is modern Al Fathah, north of Tikrit on the Tigris. From the extracts above, it appears that Humr is at the confluence of the Tigris and Little Zab River, to the North of Al Fathah. We see from the text that Humr is on the right bank of the Tigris, as it flows south - attached is a snap of the map on p249 of War in the Air, Vol 5. There's no corresponding place name on modern maps, but the name Humr must relate to the high ground on the right bank of the Tigris, south of its confluence with the Little Zab - above and behind modern day Azwai City.

Putting that lot together with Pitt's & Lapraik's combat reports, I reckon the Halberstadt will have fallen somewhere near Aran.

Andy

[charlie2]

On 07/07/2023 at 08:30, stevenbecker said:

Paulat Friedrich    Flieger    Airforce shown 13th Aircraft Company Tayyare Boluk    1917-18     (born 1888 at Wundlacken Königsberg KIA 18-10-18) gefallen Tot at Aleppo buried at Aleppo Cemetery Syria from Mesopotamia shown leicht verwundet (minor wound) WIA 1917 (@ 6-17) (not identified)

Steve, where does this information come from? Just the VdK and casualty lists?
Whether he is the same person as Fritz Wilhelm I don‘t know, the information I can find is confusing and only points to them being different people.

The Friedrich in the casualty list from Nov 18, is recorded without a rank which suggests (in this issue) that he was only a Private. The book „Unsere Luftstreitkräfte 1914-1918“ published in 1930 does not record a Paulat (of any name) as having died with the German „Airforce“. The Red Cross records list Fritz Wilhelm as having been seriously wounded in the leg and discharged from hospital in March 1919. His next of kin - Emma Paulat - is still living at the same address in Cuxhaven in the early 1930‘s. Whether she was his wife or unmarried sister I know not.

Charlie

Edited 9 July , 2023 by charlie2

[charlie2]

On 07/07/2023 at 00:36, stevenbecker said:

Do we know where these men are buried, I would have said in Bagdad, but even there I can't confirm

Hans Minckwitz is buried in Bagdad, but recorded as Ltn Minckewitz by the Volksbund.

You may be interested in this record https://des.genealogy.net/search/show/20999947

The photo in full courtesy of SLUB

Charlie

 

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Like I said your better that this  then me.

I looked for that detail on Paulat, but failed to find where, I am sure it maybe on the on line project webb site

This lists many soldiers buried in long lost grave sites all over the world, i found many missing German/Austrians on this site and the Regimental list of dead and missing are very interesting for the dates they were in Palestine and Turkey.

Das „Onlineprojekt Gefallenendenkmäler“ distanziert sich entschieden von jeder Form der "Heldenverehrung" und/oder Kriegsverherrlichung!