Capt. E. C. Carver RN at the Dardanelles

[michaeldr]

Speaking to Richard Baker [for his biography 'The Terror of Tobermory'] Vice Admiral Stephenson  [ranked a Commander at the Dardanelles, working under Wemyss] refers to a Captain Carver. 
I understand this to be Captain Edmund Clifton Carver RN who was MiD for the Dardanelles.
Per Stephenson he had “the reputation of provoking more mutinies than anyone else in the Royal Navy”.
Stephenson appears to indicate that Carver also worked under Wemyss, being employed on the tug 'Alice', supervising salvage work

Notwithstanding his DSO gained in the 1917 Birthday Honours, Carver later came to grief over discipline in September that year - see - Morale and Discipline in the Royal Navy during the First World War by Laura Rowe, who refers to “HMS Amphitrite (an 11,000 ton first class protected cruiser launched in 1898, which had been converted to a minelayer in 1917). At 1.15 pm on the 23 September 1917, whilst she was stationed in Portsmouth, fifty-eight able and ordinary seamen refused to obey the pipe for both watches to fall in.” 

“In their submission to the Admiralty outlining the results of the court of enquiry, Captains Skipwith and Garforth firmly stated that: ‘We are of opinion that the cause of this protest was Captain Carver’s tactless and overbearing method of dealing with the Officers and men and that he is most seriously to blame and should be held responsible for the whole series of events which culminated in this most serious offence against Naval discipline.’  The accompanying letter by Admiral Colville was even more direct: ‘Captain Carver is solely and entirely to blame for the lamentable state of affairs on board that ship; he has most thoroughly maintained his service reputation [by which he meant Carver’s reputation as an appalling leader], and I submit to their Lordships that he should be instantly relieved of his command and never employed again in any position where he commands officers and men. If he is left any longer in this ship, there will probably be more serious trouble.’
[footnote ref - TNA, ADM 156/34 – Findings of the Court of Enquiry, 25 September 1917.]

I am however more interested in Carver's time at the Dardanelles and would be grateful to hear if anyone has come across further examples of his work/command there, or indeed any further details of the work of the tug 'Alice' at the Dardanelles. 
[note: I already have ADM 196/43/393]

Thanks in advance, Michael

Edited 5 July , 2023 by michaeldr

[IPT]

Depositions of witnesses and reports, Dardanelles Commission, 1917-1919

1917 Mar 1

Typed copy of evidence of Capt Edmund Clifton Carver RN, former Beachmaster at A Beach, Suvla Bay, Aug 1915, given to the Dardanelles Commission in reply to questions 20529-20682, relating to arrangements for the supply of water at Suvla following the landings of 6 Aug 1915. Two identical copies. 30pp

https://kingscollections.org/catalogues/lhcma/collection/h/ha30-001/8/h0-0802

[michaeldr]

Thanks IPT; I'd missed that

[michaeldr]

5 hours ago, michaeldr said:

I am however more interested in Carver's time at the Dardanelles and would be grateful to hear if anyone has come across further examples of his work/command there, or indeed any further details of the work of the tug 'Alice' at the Dardanelles. 

Regarding the 'Alice' :-

Lloyds Register of 1919-20 has - Alice (ex-Vincent Grech) gross 253 tons, built 1913 by Philip & Son Ltd, Dartmouth

from http://www.levantineheritage.com/note87.htm 
'The most notable Grech in the Dardanelles was Vincent (S. E.) Grech, the “most prominent salvor in the area” who owned four salvage vessels. … ... A small salvage tug named the “Vincent Grech” was acquired by the Royal Navy in Piraeus and operational during WWI.' 

The Norman Thomas Gilroy war diary, 2 February-29 April 1915 - https://transcripts.sl.nsw.gov.au/page/item-01-norman-thomas-gilroy-war-diary-2-february-29-april-1915-page-73 has  
20th April 1915 … …Our 2nd Mate has been appointed skipper of the salvage tug Vincent Grech, and it to be granted a commission in the R.N.R.; the 4th Engr is going as his Chief, besides A.B.'s & Stokers for other duties. 

It is not yet clear exactly when this vessel's name was changed to 'Alice'

 

 

[horatio2]

ALICE seems to have been MMR-manned but from an unknown date (sorry). The MMR Medal Roll throws up the following named to ALICE:-

Engineer, Mercantile Marine Reserve AlfredBORG;   Engineer, Mercantile Marine Reserve A.F.CAMILLON;   Engineer, Mercantile Marine Reserve Joe C.DOUBLET;

Chief Engineer, Mercantile Marine Reserve RobertPATERSON;    Mate, Mercantile Marine Reserve J.C. PETTENDRIDGE;

Engineer, Mercantile Marine Reserve John B.SCICLUNA;  Mate, Mercantile Marine Reserve T.D.SKITT;

I note that Dittmar and Colledge have ALICE in RN service "1916 - 9.25" None of the above MMR officers qualified for the 1914-15 Star, which seems to point towards aa early-1916 Admiralty hiring and operations as post-Gallipoli ( see log links below). I have my doubts about his "...being employed on the tug 'Alice" which implies command. I would have expected ALICE to be commanded by an RNR Lieutenant. I suspect CARVER was running a small fleet of salvage vessels for Wemyss. That said, difficult to pin down.

HMS BLENHEIM's log has ALICE entries for 28 and 29 April and 22 May 1916 at Mudros  -  http://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-05-HMS_Blenheim.htm

Also HMS JED on 18, 24 and 25 May 1916  -  http://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-LogBooksWW1.htm

And HMS WELLAND for 28 May 1916 and 5 Apr 1917 (at Malta)  - http://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-10-HMS_Welland.htm 

[michaeldr]

Many thanks for that in-put and for those refs, H2

.................................................................................

5 hours ago, IPT said:

Typed copy of evidence of Capt Edmund Clifton Carver RN, former Beachmaster at A Beach, Suvla Bay, Aug 1915, given to the Dardanelles Commission in reply to questions 20529-20682, relating to arrangements for the supply of water at Suvla following the landings of 6 Aug 1915. Two identical copies. 30pp

https://kingscollections.org/catalogues/lhcma/collection/h/ha30-001/8/h0-0802

I don't have access to this document, however I note that Carver is not listed amongst the Beach Masters at Suvla in the OH (Append. Vol.2) Appendix 4, p.29

Notwithstanding the above, there is indeed ref. to him in 'Defeat at the Dardanelles, The Dardanelles Commission, Part II, 1915-16' published by The Stationery Office,  where (on p.218) there is a passage concerning the supply of drinking water during what appears to be the early hours of the Suvla landing, and in full the paragraph reads
“The evidence shows there was a great deal of confusion on the beaches. The men not being able to get water quickly enough, owing to the absence of receptacles, took out their knives and pricked holes in the hoses. Colonel Western considers there was a serious want of discipline, and a lack of power of command on the part of regimental commanders and officers, and this is confirmed by Captain Carver, RN, who acted for a time as beach-master.”
Later, in his 'Supplementary Report' the Hon. Sir Thomas Mackenzie noted (on p.311)
“He [Gen. Stopford] maintains that he relied on arrangements made by General Headquarters for the supply of water … … … Nevertheless, until August 8th he took no active personal interest in this all-important question.
Captain Carver, of the Royal Navy, did his best to encourage prompt action, but this was regarded by the military as undue interference, and he was withdrawn.”

Combined Ops Landings being something of a new field in August 1915, there would seem to have been little understanding between the services as to where exactly the Navy's responsibilities end and those of the Army begin.

[michaeldr]

14 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

I suspect CARVER was running a small fleet of salvage vessels for Wemyss.

Agreed H2, and judging by the Log entries which you have kindly pointed out (together with the Gilroy diary entry and that of Dittmar & Colledge) then the name Alice was may well have been adopted later, probably in 1916(?)

[michaeldr]

After working with Wemyss, Stephenson went to the Canopus, before being given the job of Commander, Crete Patrols, in March 1916. Following that he was given the acting rank of Captain and made 'Captain K' based on Lemnos again. This being so, then much later (post WWII) he might well be more inclined to remember the tug by its later name 'Alice' instead of 'Vincent Grech'

[KizmeRD]

‘Vincent Grech’s British Salvage Company’ was also owner of the tug İntibâh before it got sold to the Ottoman Navy 4 March 1912. The Grech’s were a prominent Levantine family. As far as I could tell, tug Alice was acquired by the Royal Navy in Pireaus 25 September 1916 (however it would seem that it might have been earlier) and was later in use as a Mediterranean Convoy escort. 

MB

 

Edited 4 July , 2023 by KizmeRD

[michaeldr]

Having another look at the Norman Thomas Gilroy war diary, 2 February-29 April 1915.
Gilroy appears to have served on Transport A45, the Bulla (previously the German 'Hessen'
https://www.birtwistlewiki.com.au/index.php?title=HMAT_A45_Bulla&mobileaction=toggle_view_mobile)

Gilroy war diary - https://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/_transcript/2011/D01759/a2363.htm
on pps 72/3 there is a brief description of the tug Vincent Grech (later 'Alice')
“Friday 23rd April. At 12.30 the tug to which the 2nd Mate has been appointed came alongside and took him away. It is a fine big tug of about 500 tons, with engines capable of sending her along at 14 knots; the accommodation is surprisingly good, the Saloon and 2 staterooms being very large and well furnished rooms.”

If somewhere there's a crew list or log for the Transport A45 Bulla (Hessen) we might be able to identify some of the crew members who transferred to the tug [20th April 1915 … … 2nd Mate - 4th Engr – plus ABs & Stokers]

[michaeldr]

Although unable to access this doc. on-line, https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6641482 it would seem from the catalogue note, to confirm that the tug Vincent Grech was employed by the Admiralty from 1915 (rather than 1916 per D & C)

[KizmeRD]

Interestingly Rosslyn Wemyss who took on the task of sourcing as many local craft as possible ahead of the Dardanelles Campaign had a daughter named Alice, so I guess that’s how the tug acquired its name once in Admiralty service.
In his book ‘The Navy in the Dardanelles’ Wemyss wasn’t at all complimentary about the ability (or lack of) of Vincent Grech to assist him in the task of purchasing suitable vessels.

MB

[michaeldr]

 I find ADM-196-43-393 very difficult to read and further more, it seems to be incomplete, there being a ref “Cont. in Bk II page101” of which, so far, I can find no trace.
The last couple of lines at the foot of the page seem to cover Capt. Carver's service at the Dardanelles, including a ref to his receiving a “bullet wound left thigh” and subsequently entering hospital at Malta (date unclear, but probably 29.9.15?). 
I have not been able to decipher the entry after this point.

However, we know that he eventually resumed his RN service and was active at least until the HMS Amphitrite incident in September 1917.

I now find that early in 1918 he became a Lieutenant (acting Mjr) in the RFC, serving with their Balloons – see AIR 76/79/47 – transferring to the RAF's unemployed list 14.2.19

[Swinesheadvillage]

Hi Michael

I came across this obit from the Mid Sussex Times 9th Dec 1942  (courtesy of FMP):-

Sadly his son, John Clifton Carver, was killed within a year of his father's passing, during the Battle of Sept-Iles

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2476748/john-clifton-carver/

Kind Regards

Derek