Sequence of events once you attended a recrtuitment office?

[Matlock1418]

44 minutes ago, kerry said:

I'm not sure how your quoted map references work - how do i transpoe them onto an actual map please?

As Ken has suggested.

Once having used the map reference on TrenchMAPPER or tMAPPER you should get also Latitude and Longitude coordinates which you can then put into a mobile device if you then want to go walkabout.

Good luck.

M

[kerry]

Thanks Matlock - am needing to redo my research as to exactly where trenches 41, 43, 44 and 46 actually were, before visiting again.

[WhiteStarLine]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Private 10611 Sydney Barker was originally an unknown soldier of the KOYLI found in 1935 at map reference 28.I.29.c.55.35 and subsequently moved to Bedford House Cemetery. He was identified from part of his disc that had survived https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/4009541/sydney-barker/

Private 20708 John Richard Lorriman was also originally an unknown soldier of the KOYLI found in 1935 at map reference 28.I.29.c.45.60

Kerry, the Official History is pretty informative and shows:

• Map 9 - the situation on the 30th April. The salient before the withdrawal.
• Map 10 - The establishment of the new line. Situation at night on the 4th May.
• Map 11 - Saturday 8th May.

I've superimposed the burial location of Privates Barker and Lorriman.  The aerial below is much later in the war but shows the devastation and also how little many of the features had changed.  You can open TrenchMapper yourself and convert references such as Barker's and Lorriman's and get a modern location.

Cheers, Bill

[kerry]

Hi Bill, very many thanks for this extra informatoin - it proves that in 2015 I'd visited an area nudging into Shrewsbury Forest, by mistake. I've just joined the WFA online and am awaiting an email with my log-in details.  Thank you again, Kerry.

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, kerry said:

I've just joined the WFA online and am awaiting an email with my log-in details. 

TrenchMAPPER has been a great addition.

Enjoy the Pension records too!

And all the other stuff there - all round a well spent small subscription I think.

M

[WhiteStarLine]

21 hours ago, kerry said:

trenches 41, 43, 44 and 46

EDIT: Redone following observation from Kerry and map from Brian - see 3 posts down

Hi Kerry, this is quite speculative based on taking the hand sketch (probably done in candlelight during a lull in bombardment) and flipping / mirror-imaging to orientate it from south up to north up.  It is not drawn to scale and has no referenceable features, so take the overlay with a bucket of salt.  If we get a better map of the assault we can delete this one and try again.  Trench 44 looks in the same place as other maps.

Best research you could do (if not done already) is to check the unit war diary of each battalion that participated in the attack.  Or ask the war diary wizard, @brianmorris547 if he has access to a good map of the salient from April or May 1915.  If we have one good map, we can place the trenches you mention onto a modern location quite quickly.  I have a suspicion that the shape remained largely unchanged over the duration, whether it was occupied by British or German forces.

The markers are part of the internal process so not relevant to your research.  http://mapcrop.tmapper.com/georef.html?id=ljqffnik

Cheers, Bill

 

Edited 6 July , 2023 by WhiteStarLine
Redone following observation from Kerry and map from Brian

[kerry]

Many thanks for your post, Bill. I agree with your view as to the veracity of the sketch map. I think the map may be the wrong way round on your superimposition though? Viewing the post on my mobile though ....

And thank you for suggesting contacting @brianmorris547 regarding participating Bns.

In 2004 when I last researched the Zwarteleen Salient in this forum, I wasn't able to come across any trench maps that had the British trenches numbered in early 1915.

[brianmorris547]

Kerry

There are some maps named in 1915 WDs which show the area, some with trench numbers. The best one is this from the May 1915 WD of 46 Div HQ General Staff.

Courtesy TNA/Ancestry WO 95/2662. 

In the same Brigade as 2 KOYLI were 2 West Riding and this map is from the May 1915 WD of that Bn.

Courtesy TNA/Ancestry WO 95/1552.

It shows Trench 41 which was set back and also position with regard to Hill 60.

The current maps are the Belgian IGN 27-28-38 1;50 000 Ieper and 1:20 000 Sheet 28 1-2 Poperinge-Ieper.

Brian

[WhiteStarLine]

2 hours ago, kerry said:

I think the map may be the wrong way round on your superimposition though

Hi Kerry, did not understand what you were saying until I saw the map from Brian.  Appreciate you picked up more from your phone that I did.  I've done a fit of Brian's map and I can correct my error in the one you supplied as well in the next hour or so.  Most interesting how the salient looked in 1915 versus later in the war.  Cheers, Bill

http://mapcrop.tmapper.com/georef.html?id=ljqxc92z

 

Edited 6 July , 2023 by WhiteStarLine
Map attached

[PRC]

I don't know if this adds anything, but the official regimental history of the Queens Own Royal West Kent Regiment 1914-1919 by C.T. Atkinson has been transcribed and put on line. Chapter V covers the 1st Battalions involvement in the fighting around Hill 60 and its subsequent loss - the latter dealt with in a few brief sentences on pages 96 & 97 as the Battalion, part of 13th Brigade, were withdrawn into reserve after the fighting on the 6th.

On page 96 there is a sketch map of the area, (itself said to be a composite of three contemporary sketch maps). It includes an indication of where trenches 41, 43, 44 and 46 were.

Image courtesy http://janetandrichardsgenealogy.co.uk/QORWK C T Atkinson.html

Interestingly the sentence spanning page 96 and 97 reads "C Company was left on the right of the Bedfordshires to protect that battalion’s flank should the
enemy try to advance from the Zwarteleen salient which they had captured along with Hill 60. "

May be old hat to others but it was news to me. That would imply that either troops of the 5th or 27th Division were evicted from the salient, so may be some mileage in identifying who they were as their records, (and that of the brigade and supporting divisional artillery), may give a more accurate location.

Cheers,
Peter

[Matlock1418]

Excuse my entry into this thread ...

DELETED

M

Edited 6 July , 2023 by Matlock1418
delete

[WhiteStarLine]

46 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Excuse my entry into this thread ...

Hi all, saw M's response and I think we are finally on top of things and all is on track to give Kerry what he wants.  It has been a very confusing journey!

1. There are very few 1915 maps showing trenches, particularly the numbered ones that existed back then.
2. We are all used to seeing the salient jutting into the British lines.
3. The map I first georeferenced needed to be rotated to have north upwards - it did not show north so I made the mistake of also flipping it so that the salient pointed to British lines.
4. The front line itself changed a few times so some of the maps have (correctly) the entire German line further south, some to the north and some with Hill 60 in German hands and the salient still in British hands.
5. The sketch map quoted by Peter has drawn north in the wrong direction.  Before I realised this and saw M's post I too thought of giving up and deleting everything! 

So now we have Brian's map georeferenced and Peter and Kerry's map correlating that the salient to the east of Hill 60 pointed southwards.  This means we have enough raw data to complete this.  Fingers crossed!  Bill 

[Matlock1418]

26 minutes ago, WhiteStarLine said:

Hi all, saw M's response

Sorry Bill, I had hoped you wouldn't have seen it given I seemed to be all over the place orienting thing at that point so I quickly deleted, obviously not quickly enough! 

The Sector D map posted by Brian I belatedly spotted has a slightly obscure North pointer [so in fact drawn looking SE] and thence the earlier post by Kerry of the War Diary entry with map became clear as map looking south [south up].

Once I had my head around things and reorientated 'north up' and got Hill 60 to the east of the railway your last superimposed georeferenced tMapper became clear  - should be of use to Kerry

M

Edited 6 July , 2023 by Matlock1418
tweak

[WhiteStarLine]

Last one for tonight - the Sector D map posted by Brian is definitely what we are looking for and the other two are too rough for georeferencing but correlate the overall shape and position of the salient as it was in April 1915.  Plus they name the trenches and the map posted by Kerry has the specific trench numbers he seeks.

[WhiteStarLine]

Hi @kerry,

Kerry, I think we can now conclude this with some confidence.  Sector D from @brianmorris547 was the key map as it was the only one that showed military and civilian features, enabling it to be goereferenced.  Happily, every named trench shown on it accords with your original field sketch.  Except trench 41 is not shown on Sector D.  However, the sketch gives it at 100 yards from the distinct V-shape of the salient so I am reasonably confident we have it as well.

With 3 sketch maps and the body exhumation positions behind us I think we have something you can visit with a degree of confidence you are in the right spot.

Also, I've lapsed into NATO-speak and drawn British in blue and German in red.  The raw data is included below so you can correct this yourself if concerned!

Cheers, Bill 

Map Tracing
28.I.29.c.50.02,Trench 37
28.I.29.c.65.15,Trench 38
28.I.29.c.82.33,Trench 39
28.I.29.d.14.39,Trench 40
28.I.29.d.30.26,Trench 43
28.I.29.d.36.25,Trench 44
28.I.29.d.34.34,Trench 45
28.I.29.d.40.44,Trench 46
28.I.29.d.68.47,Trench 47
28.I.29.d.90.63,Trench 48
28.I.30.c.28.79,Trench 49
28.I.30.c.58.80,Trench 50

Interpolation
28.I.29.d.14.57,Trench 41

Exhumations
28.I.29.c.55.35,PTE Barker
28.I.29.c.45.60,PTE Lorriman

British Line
50.824281, 2.92824
50.824526, 2.928637
50.8246, 2.928907
50.824765, 2.929377
50.82489, 2.929801
50.824947, 2.930125
50.824964, 2.930315
50.82509, 2.930748
50.825101, 2.930901
50.825061, 2.9311
50.824725, 2.93193
50.824605, 2.932173
50.824429, 2.932588
50.824537, 2.932805
50.825147, 2.932471
50.825301, 2.933139
50.825289, 2.933265
50.825375, 2.933644
50.825272, 2.933888
50.825255, 2.934113
50.825375, 2.934411
50.825409, 2.934826
50.825506, 2.935006
50.825546, 2.935105
50.825797, 2.935448
50.825956, 2.935593
50.826036, 2.935809
50.826104, 2.936125
50.826093, 2.936477
50.826093, 2.936802
50.826161, 2.937171
50.826258, 2.937406
50.826423, 2.937532
50.826566, 2.937848
50.82672, 2.938191
50.826782, 2.938588
50.826828, 2.938994
50.826828, 2.939427
50.826777, 2.939824
50.826737, 2.940212
50.826777, 2.940519
50.826845, 2.940843
50.826914, 2.94152

German Line
50.823557, 2.928628
50.823688, 2.928826
50.823882, 2.92898
50.824058, 2.929386
50.824138, 2.92971
50.824224, 2.930189
50.824212, 2.930649
50.824189, 2.931046
50.824138, 2.931416
50.824081, 2.931794
50.824121, 2.932065
50.824172, 2.932444
50.824229, 2.932606
50.824224, 2.932931
50.824326, 2.933094
50.824509, 2.933337
50.824657, 2.933608
50.824799, 2.93386
50.82464, 2.933879
50.824412, 2.934095
50.824144, 2.934339
50.824053, 2.934591
50.824098, 2.934853
50.824338, 2.935142
50.824548, 2.935403
50.824771, 2.93562
50.824959, 2.935908
50.82513, 2.936179
50.825267, 2.936612
50.825363, 2.936982
50.825426, 2.937289
50.825597, 2.937586
50.825933, 2.937794
50.826207, 2.937911
50.826304, 2.937938
50.826406, 2.938182
50.826452, 2.938543
50.826463, 2.938877
50.826401, 2.939075
50.826395, 2.939355
50.826327, 2.939652
50.826287, 2.939833
50.826053, 2.939959
50.825882, 2.939986
50.825842, 2.940356
50.825785, 2.940916
50.825779, 2.941385
50.825774, 2.941728
50.825722, 2.942152

Trench 41 end-point interpolation
28.I.29.d.08.54
28.I.29.d.24.60

[Matlock1418]

3 minutes ago, WhiteStarLine said:

Also, I've lapsed into NATO-speak and drawn British in blue and German in red.  The raw data is included below so you can correct this yourself if concerned!

Cheers, Bill 

Map Tracing
28.I.29.c.50.02,Trench 37
28.I.29.c.65.15,Trench 38
28.I.29.c.82.33,Trench 39
28.I.29.d.14.39,Trench 40
28.I.29.d.30.26,Trench 43
28.I.29.d.36.25,Trench 44
28.I.29.d.34.34,Trench 45
28.I.29.d.40.44,Trench 46
28.I.29.d.68.47,Trench 47
28.I.29.d.90.63,Trench 48
28.I.30.c.28.79,Trench 49
28.I.30.c.58.80,Trench 50

Interpolation
28.I.29.d.14.57,Trench 41

Exhumations
28.I.29.c.55.35,PTE Barker
28.I.29.c.45.60,PTE Lorriman

British Line
50.824281, 2.92824
50.824526, 2.928637
50.8246, 2.928907
50.824765, 2.929377
50.82489, 2.929801
50.824947, 2.930125
50.824964, 2.930315
50.82509, 2.930748
50.825101, 2.930901
50.825061, 2.9311
50.824725, 2.93193
50.824605, 2.932173
50.824429, 2.932588
50.824537, 2.932805
50.825147, 2.932471
50.825301, 2.933139
50.825289, 2.933265
50.825375, 2.933644
50.825272, 2.933888
50.825255, 2.934113
50.825375, 2.934411
50.825409, 2.934826
50.825506, 2.935006
50.825546, 2.935105
50.825797, 2.935448
50.825956, 2.935593
50.826036, 2.935809
50.826104, 2.936125
50.826093, 2.936477
50.826093, 2.936802
50.826161, 2.937171
50.826258, 2.937406
50.826423, 2.937532
50.826566, 2.937848
50.82672, 2.938191
50.826782, 2.938588
50.826828, 2.938994
50.826828, 2.939427
50.826777, 2.939824
50.826737, 2.940212
50.826777, 2.940519
50.826845, 2.940843
50.826914, 2.94152

German Line
50.823557, 2.928628
50.823688, 2.928826
50.823882, 2.92898
50.824058, 2.929386
50.824138, 2.92971
50.824224, 2.930189
50.824212, 2.930649
50.824189, 2.931046
50.824138, 2.931416
50.824081, 2.931794
50.824121, 2.932065
50.824172, 2.932444
50.824229, 2.932606
50.824224, 2.932931
50.824326, 2.933094
50.824509, 2.933337
50.824657, 2.933608
50.824799, 2.93386
50.82464, 2.933879
50.824412, 2.934095
50.824144, 2.934339
50.824053, 2.934591
50.824098, 2.934853
50.824338, 2.935142
50.824548, 2.935403
50.824771, 2.93562
50.824959, 2.935908
50.82513, 2.936179
50.825267, 2.936612
50.825363, 2.936982
50.825426, 2.937289
50.825597, 2.937586
50.825933, 2.937794
50.826207, 2.937911
50.826304, 2.937938
50.826406, 2.938182
50.826452, 2.938543
50.826463, 2.938877
50.826401, 2.939075
50.826395, 2.939355
50.826327, 2.939652
50.826287, 2.939833
50.826053, 2.939959
50.825882, 2.939986
50.825842, 2.940356
50.825785, 2.940916
50.825779, 2.941385
50.825774, 2.941728
50.825722, 2.942152

Trench 41 end-point interpolation
28.I.29.d.08.54
28.I.29.d.24.60

Awesome work Bill. 

M