Any information

[oldson]

Hello all,just bought this bayonet to add to my growing collection,but cant find anything similar ? Hopefully you can help with you wealth of knowledge,there's a crown with w 14 on the back of the blade and what looks like ersatz by the hilt,label said ww1 saw back bayonet any info much appreciated 

[Spaceman]

A saw back S84/98 bayonet made at the Erfurt Royal Arsenal - one of may variations?

[AndyBsk]

Its KS98 with composite grips, made in 1914 in Erfurt. Locking lug and press button and metall scabbard is missing.

[oldson]

Cheers Andy,didn't get scabbard with it alasam I correct on believing they were banned in 1916 sure read that somewhere ? 

[AndyBsk]

I assume the sawback was not used on combat units, since 1917 but still used in non combat units to end of 1918. Anyway KS98 were stopped production already 1915 probably.

[oldson]

Cheers for info what threw me was the size of blade,as it's same size as cur down trench bayonets I have, wasn't sure if I t was a cut down butcher bayonet but now know 

[AndyBsk]

Is not same size as trench knives, the size of blade is normal as S71/84, KS98 and S84/98 its 10 inch. Your tip was blunted or removed about 4 mm in lenght.

Edited 29 June , 2023 by AndyBsk

[trajan]

The kS 98 originally designed for issue to MG units, but many more issued to German colonial units. 

[JMB1943]

On 25/06/2023 at 10:19, AndyBsk said:

It’s KS98 with composite grips, made in 1914 in Erfurt. Locking lug and press button and metall scabbard is missing.

Andy,

Of what would these “composite “ grips have been made?

Regards,

JMB

[AndyBsk]

I dont have the book of Ian Jackson about the KS98, anyway from the color and structure, i assume its bakelit, or fenolic resin without additional colors. Its a termoset, after hardening is no more possibility with press or temperature to do. Its resistant to major acids and chemicals. Also very stabile material.

Edited 1 July , 2023 by AndyBsk

[JMB1943]

Andy,

Thanks, I did know that the Germans were very fond of bakelite.

Wasn’t Baekeland a German chemist?

Regards,

 

[AndyBsk]

Baekeland was belgian, the US patent was about 1907, there existed more firms around the world, one  was Bakelite A.G. in Germany. 

[trajan]

According to Jackson, p.21, 'The red rubber composition grips were made of vulcanised caoutchouc (kautschuck) and are only found on the kS98 bayonet. Caoutchouc uis a natural rubber exudate tapped from rubber trees or vines that beomes hard and more durable after vulcanisation. ... The orange-red colour of thegrips may have come from either the addition of dyes prior to the vulcanization process or the use of red-coloured natural rubber fro southern regions of the Congo'. Note also that these grips were introduced in 1912 at Erfurt, but Jackson has not been able to locate any records relating to their introduction.

Julian

[MaureenE]

25 minutes ago, trajan said:

According to Jackson, p.21, 'The red rubber composition grips were made of vulcanised caoutchouc (kautschuck) 

 

As the term caoutchouc may not be familiar, there is an online book The Ficus elastica in Burma proper or a narrative of my journey in search of it : a descriptive account of its habits of growth and the process followed by the Kakhyens in the preparation of caoutchouc by G. W. Strettell. 1876 Archive.org 

https://archive.org/details/ficuselasticainb00stre/page/n5/mode/2up

Maureen

[AndyBsk]

I personally doubt about this opinion as the hardened kautchuk was used already on Werndl M1870/73 bayonets and on plenty bayonets of various countries since 1870 to 1900, the type of early syntetic based on kautchuk and early syntetics already on french M1892 grips. never seen the kauchuck based products in red color, but the early bakelit was made wout various organics additives which caused a red color similar to S84/98 III.type grips of late war period, where no any colors were added into phenolic resin. But more research should be done in archives.

Edited 23 July , 2023 by AndyBsk

[trajan]

Thanks both. Ian Jackson is, if I remember aright, a research chemist in real life, so I might take this up with him - if I can find his 'home' email!

Julian

[Rafal1971]

If someone is interested in the production of bakelite with particular emphasis on ingredients and color, I recommend this book

Sebastian Thiem

Das Seitengewehr 84/98 bei der Reichswehr und Wehrmacht

 

Best Rafal

[trajan]

1 hour ago, Rafal1971 said:

If someone is interested in the production of bakelite with particular emphasis on ingredients and color, I recommend this book

Sebastian Thiem

Das Seitengewehr 84/98 bei der Reichswehr und Wehrmacht

 

Best Rafal

 That's one I have missed! I have his Deutsche Versuchs- volume, so I'll look out for this. I had heard he was in touch with Bruce over a new 84/98 book - is this it?

Julian

[AndyBsk]

Sebastian Thiem have some errors there, but maybe the composition part is ok. No Julian this is other book as is prepared by Bruce K about S84/98nA also imperial bayonets.

Edited 23 July , 2023 by AndyBsk

[Rafal1971]

4 hours ago, trajan said:

 That's one I have missed! I have his Deutsche Versuchs- volume, so I'll look out for this. I had heard he was in touch with Bruce over a new 84/98 book - is this it?

Julian

 

And I don't have experimental bayonets :-)
I'm hunting her.
Andy, which book has no errors? One that hasn't been written.

 

 

THIEM Sebastian: The bayonet 84/98 in the Reichswehr and Wehrmacht, from 1920 to 1945

615 pages, 215 color photographs of real objects, 80 historical photographs, drawings, 20 tables, list of sources and bibliography, bound

For the first time in the German specialist literature, a comprehensive and holistic treatment of the bayonet model 84/98 is available with this work. The focus of this work is mainly on the historical and armament economics of the bayonet model, including the environment (armament production, organization, departments, foreign policy situations). The processing is carried out chronologically, based on the years from 1920 to 1945. The type of production, stamps, acceptance tests and the armaments economic conditions of the respective years are processed in detail. Especially the consideration of the armaments economic influences from the turn of the year 1939/40, known under the catchphrase "definement", allow a contextualization with other branches of production or armaments. Because the "de-refinement" of armaments as a tool for streamlining production and increasing output was also used in other production areas. Thus, this work is also a treasure trove for the historian, even without direct reference to the considered edged weapons. The work is based on the detailed investigation and analysis of significant sources and further specialist literature as well as the study of the real pieces themselves. For the purpose of illustration, approximately 290 historical and contemporary photographs and over 20 tables, drawings and overviews have been included. The historical recordings, mainly from the holdings of the Federal Archives, were compiled by viewing around 15,000 individual recordings, from which the most meaningful ones were selected for this work. The images, tables, drawings and overviews serve as an important building block to underpin the written elaboration, create a necessary overview and give insights into the situations at that time. Points of knowledge about the environment such as export orders, descriptions of the organizational forms of the Army Weapons Office or a detailed elaboration on the production of phenolic resin pressed parts are also listed. The latter allows a comprehensive insight into the production field of the "Bakelite" products of the years 1936 to 1945. Not only the individual types of molding compound are processed, but also their composition, production methods or quality tests are considered. This view is also based on existing sources and specialist literature from before 1945 and thus provides an actual insight into the conditions at that time, excluding more modern developments after 1945, which would falsify the view. Thoroughly researched and richly equipped with high-quality photographs, dimension tables, construction drawings and tables, this work is a must for collectors, museums and historians.

[AndyBsk]

Yes You are right, his phenolic resin part looks extended. He fullended the work of F.Ruediger as the materials are probably on 90% from F.R. but he was not able to fullend it already so moved the material to younger  S.T.

Edited 24 July , 2023 by AndyBsk

[trajan]

12 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

... No Julian this is other book as is prepared by Bruce K about S84/98nA also imperial bayonets.

I DO wish Bruce K would re-issue that book... I have been searching for it for years, and can't even find a copy on Inter-Library Loan...

Julian

[AndyBsk]

That book S84/98nA vol.1 reprint is in progress, but the old version first print has too many errors and he is intensively working on it, so You should wait a little, i assume this year should be the realisation, when not so early 2024. 

[trajan]

47 minutes ago, AndyBsk said:

That book S84/98nA vol.1 reprint is in progress, but the old version first print has too many errors and he is intensively working on it, so You should wait a little, i assume this year should be the realisation, when not so early 2024. 

TX Andy. I wrote to Bruce K about this some eight years ago and he said then that he was redoing it... I know from my own experience of authoring a book anmd then revising it for a second edition that it can take a while, but this one has been going on forever!

Julian