steveo Posted 24 June , 2023 Share Posted 24 June , 2023 So a relative has a fired shell that has been in the family for over 100 years that was passed around after WW1. The timer cone is still attached (in good shape) and there are no drilled holes in it. If the cone has been removed and put back on it would have been over 75 years ago. It originated in Iowa and has always been considered "trench art" because it has CAMP DODGE IOWA JULY 14, 1918 engraved (with a nail or something) near the base. someone took the time to smooth out the bottom ring to tap those words into it. Generations have been told that it is a "Dummy" round used for training used at that camp. There are photos of a relative holding the shell in 1918. It has reappeared and I am curious if "dummy" rounds even existed back then and what they would look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Posted 24 June , 2023 Share Posted 24 June , 2023 I am sure there were dummy rounds used for demonstrating the operation of the breech mechanism but I don't think there would be any purpose in firing inert shells, especially Shrapnel shells. It may be in this case, an empty Shrapnel shell was picked up on the firing range and was then mistakenly assumed to be a dummy round, whereas, the contents and the original time fuse had in fact been blasted out of the front like a shot gun shell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo Posted 24 June , 2023 Author Share Posted 24 June , 2023 (edited) The cone is still attached. clearly no powder in the cone but not sure its ever been removed either. Someone felt safe enough to hammer in the words and flatten the copper color band on the bottom. I was just curious on dummy rounds used for practice as this never left the states. Edited 24 June , 2023 by steveo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner 87 Posted 25 June , 2023 Share Posted 25 June , 2023 23 hours ago, steveo said: The cone is still attached. clearly no powder in the cone but not sure its ever been removed either. Someone felt safe enough to hammer in the words and flatten the copper color band on the bottom. I was just curious on dummy rounds used for practice as this never left the states. Hi steveo. Welcome to the forum. As Spaceman says Dummy, or Drill Rounds, were used to check weapon functions, such as the breach, and crew training. These differ from Artillery Training Ammunition which have reduced, or no explosive charge, but still fired and have the same range and precision as a live round in addition to smoke and nang signatures though with reduced fragmentation. Whether these were available in 1918 I'm not sure. Maybe our artillery experts can advise on that @ianjonesncl @David Porter or @ororkep Camp Dodge had artillery units based there during World War One and also an artillery range so it would be completely normal to have inert ammunition on site. Certainly in the British Army Drill Rounds are a common feature in both the class room and on the guns themselves. These rounds are supplied by the manufacture, as opposed to an armourer tampering with live munitions. As such the cone would not have been removed neither would the projectile have left the states. If you are unsure at all as to wether the round is live I'm sure you know what to do..... Gunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo Posted 25 June , 2023 Author Share Posted 25 June , 2023 (edited) Yeah, it's sad but going to have it disposed. Can't trust word of mouth assertions and since there are no markings assuring me. But if an expert has better incite on dummy rounds used at Camp Fort Dodge, my ears are open!!! Edited 25 June , 2023 by steveo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner 87 Posted 25 June , 2023 Share Posted 25 June , 2023 6 minutes ago, steveo said: Yeah, it's sad but going to have it disposed. Can't trust word of mouth assertions and since there are no markings assuring me. But if an expert has better incite on dummy rounds used at Camp Fort Dodge, my ears are open!!! steveo. Dummy / Drill Rounds are usually colour coded but that may not be the case with one from the Great War. If you're in any doubt then make the call but I'm sure the ammunition tech who attends will be able to decide very quickly whether yours is live or not. Coming from Camp Dodge or not will make no difference as if it is live then its origins could be anywhere. Out of interest would you share an image of he round? Gunner... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peregrinvs Posted 25 June , 2023 Share Posted 25 June , 2023 (edited) Knowing the weights of a live shell and a fired shell that has had a fired fuze reattached to it would quickly give you a good indication of whether it was likely to be live or not. Whilst I don’t know which specific shell you have, I can report that my empty British 13 Pounder (3 inch / 76.2mm) shrapnel shell plus brass and Aluminium No.87 fuze weighs 2,664 grams. I don’t know what the live weight would have been, but I’d be unsurprised if it was circa double that. Edited 25 June , 2023 by peregrinvs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo Posted 25 June , 2023 Author Share Posted 25 June , 2023 Writing is on the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo Posted 25 June , 2023 Author Share Posted 25 June , 2023 I have no ideas of weights this one weighs on a bathroom scale at 7.6lbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peregrinvs Posted 25 June , 2023 Share Posted 25 June , 2023 (edited) This one here is described as “Inert and empty” and weighing 8.5 pounds: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/u-s-model-1907m-ww1-70mm-artillery-shrapnel If I was a betting man, I’d go with the theory that the shell above was created by someone picking up a fired shell and fuze and screwing them back together. (Not uncommon) The fuze has probably become difficult to unscrew due to time and corrosion. Heat and oil would probably loosen it, but the empty weight needs to be confirmed first. Edited 25 June , 2023 by peregrinvs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner 87 Posted 25 June , 2023 Share Posted 25 June , 2023 7 minutes ago, peregrinvs said: fired shell and fuze and screwing them back together This shell has been fired as the copper driving band has rifling marks so I think your spot on peregrinvs.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo Posted 25 June , 2023 Author Share Posted 25 June , 2023 maybe if I knew the live weight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner 87 Posted 25 June , 2023 Share Posted 25 June , 2023 26 minutes ago, steveo said: maybe if I knew the live weight Steve. This site might be of some use. Once you know the size of your shell you can then find the weight as it would be with the charge / shrapnel balls. I wonder of your round is the same as Figure 31 which is Anti Personnel (AP). The dimensions are listed. https://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=introduction-to-artillery-shells-and-shell-casings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner 87 Posted 25 June , 2023 Share Posted 25 June , 2023 (edited) If the round is US manufactured then this chart, in the Field Service Regulations 1914, United States Army, records the weight of the shell fully assembled. The round would be packed with the fuze fitted so included in the weight. Edited 25 June , 2023 by Gunner 87 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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