Selman Arthur George. 19827 C/Sgt 7th Bedfordshire Regiment. CQMS, 505 Agricultural Company, Labour Corps MSM

[Raster Scanning]

I am researching this man who served from 1883 in the Bedfords as George Baker 837. He rejoined the Bedfords in 1914 (under his real name)and joined the 7th Battalion during training in the UK. He later transferred to the 10th Battalion and later the Labour Corps. He did not serve abroad in WW1.

He has a solitary MRI Card that just states MSM. 

I wonder if anyone can help me with a look up to confirm the details of his award. I am aware of at least one book that lists wartime awards of this medal. I am however living abroad and have limited access to research resources.

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks

Edited 24 June , 2023 by Raster Scanning

[Allan1892]

All I can see from his service papers as held on Find My Past (image courtesy of FMP)

[IPT]

He has service papers on Ancestry as 499427 Labour Corps, I think.

[Raster Scanning]

Thanks both. Yes I have seen those papers, including the 2 sets of pension papers on Ancestry. However no mention of Meritorious Service Medal.I have noticed the date at the bottom 22-2-1940. Which seems rather odd he would have been an old man by then.

[PRC]

9 hours ago, Raster Scanning said:

Thanks both. Yes I have seen those papers, including the 2 sets of pension papers on Ancestry. However no mention of Meritorious Service Medal.I have noticed the date at the bottom 22-2-1940. Which seems rather odd he would have been an old man by then.

I don't know how much truth there was in it, but while researching someone from WW2 in a contemporary newspaper there was an adjoining filler article something along the lines of is this the oldest British soldier to receive a medal.

The gist of the story was that as the MSM carried a pension, each regiment had a fixed number. Someone who qualified for the award of the MSM might therefore have to wait for the death of one of the current holders in order to actually receive it. In this case the elderly holder died, the entitlement passed to the next in line who promptly died before formally receiving it and so it came to the next in line, and because he was older than either of the previous two recipients and in his nineties, that generated the article headline.

As far as I'm aware only a minority of MSM's were awarded for acts of gallantry, and the article didn't mention whether they were included in the cap or not.

Would love to know if that is correct - if it is then may well answer your questions..

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Ivor Anderson]

Peter's outlined scenario sounds likely. MSMs could only be awarded for gallantry from 1916-1928: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/33423/page/6159

If his was awarded in 1940 it must have been for long & meritorious service. I don't see it listed in the London Gazette?

He met the service criteria in that he had: good, faithful, valuable and meritorious service, with conduct judged to be irreproachable throughout, having served twenty one years, he already held a Long Service and Good Conduct Medal, and had reached the equivalent rank of sergeant: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/13653/page/2541

 

Edited 25 June , 2023 by Ivor Anderson
Additional Info

[Ivor Anderson]

     MSM & LSGC medal wards (outside 1916-1928) may not be listed in the LG. You may get information on tracing Selman's here:

    This year's MSM awards: https://www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events/news/2023/01/nyhl23-army-commendations-and-awards/

Edited 25 June , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[Matlock1418]

If an award / late award to an old soldier it might perhaps have been reported in the local newspapers ???

I can't see his SR beyond the above abstract which seems to show Godmanchester, Huntingdonshire, Birmingham, Hythe and Aldershot [though most of those locations were military it seems]

= Where was he from in later life?

= When and where died?

Again an opportunity to perhaps mention his medals in a newspaper.  ???

M

Edit: I came across this death at GRO ??? Him ???  About the right age/DOB in the 1860s ???

Name:                                            Age at Death (in years):  

SELMAN, ARTHUR  GEORGE           87  

GRO Reference: 1952  D Quarter in THANET  Volume 05B  Page 890

Edited 26 June , 2023 by Matlock1418
edit

[Allan1892]

51 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

If an award / late award to an old soldier it might perhaps have been reported in the local newspapers ???

Had a good search of newspapers via Find My Past but nothing found.

Found the announcement 1940 'granted the medal with annuity for meritorious service' (image courtesy of Find My Past)

Edited 26 June , 2023 by Allan1892

[Matlock1418]

18 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

Found the announcement 1940 'granted the medal with annuity for meritorious service' (image courtesy of Find My Past)

 Well done.

M

[Ivor Anderson]

A conclusive result! Good find Allan.

Edited 26 June , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[Raster Scanning]

On 25/06/2023 at 14:27, Ivor Anderson said:

     MSM & LSGC medal wards (outside 1916-1928) may not be listed in the LG. You may get information on tracing Selman's here:

    This year's MSM awards: https://www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events/news/2023/01/nyhl23-army-commendations-and-awards/

Thank you Ivor for your help in moving this discussion forward. Much appreciated.

On 25/06/2023 at 05:33, PRC said:

I don't know how much truth there was in it, but while researching someone from WW2 in a contemporary newspaper there was an adjoining filler article something along the lines of is this the oldest British soldier to receive a medal.

The gist of the story was that as the MSM carried a pension, each regiment had a fixed number. Someone who qualified for the award of the MSM might therefore have to wait for the death of one of the current holders in order to actually receive it. In this case the elderly holder died, the entitlement passed to the next in line who promptly died before formally receiving it and so it came to the next in line, and because he was older than either of the previous two recipients and in his nineties, that generated the article headline.

As far as I'm aware only a minority of MSM's were awarded for acts of gallantry, and the article didn't mention whether they were included in the cap or not.

Would love to know if that is correct - if it is then may well answer your questions..

Cheers,
Peter

 

Many thanks Peter

13 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

If an award / late award to an old soldier it might perhaps have been reported in the local newspapers ???

I can't see his SR beyond the above abstract which seems to show Godmanchester, Huntingdonshire, Birmingham, Hythe and Aldershot [though most of those locations were military it seems]

= Where was he from in later life?

= When and where died?

Again an opportunity to perhaps mention his medals in a newspaper.  ???

M

Edit: I came across this death at GRO ??? Him ???  About the right age/DOB in the 1860s ???

Name:                                            Age at Death (in years):  

SELMAN, ARTHUR  GEORGE           87  

GRO Reference: 1952  D Quarter in THANET  Volume 05B  Page 890

I think this is indeed him Matlock, thanks

[Raster Scanning]

13 hours ago, Allan1892 said:

Had a good search of newspapers via Find My Past but nothing found.

Found the announcement 1940 'granted the medal with annuity for meritorious service' (image courtesy of Find My Past)

Brilliant Allan, thanks so much. I also looked through the papers but missed this.

Sear all. I appreciate all the thoughts and ideas that were contributed. Best wishes. John