CharlotteMM Posted 23 June , 2023 Share Posted 23 June , 2023 Montague Twitt 1876 - 1919 Can anyone identify the uniform please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 23 June , 2023 Admin Share Posted 23 June , 2023 Looks more police than military to me. Hopefully the experts will be along soon. @FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 June , 2023 Share Posted 23 June , 2023 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Michelle Young said: Looks more police than military to me. Hopefully the experts will be along soon. @FROGSMILE Yes he’s a circa turn-of-the-Century, up to WW1, police constable, with his striped duty wristlet on. If someone can focus in closeups on the helmet plate and waistbelt clasp it should be possible to identify his constabulary. The collar number was the typical method of identifying individuals in an overt and public way. Edited 23 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 23 June , 2023 Admin Share Posted 23 June , 2023 Would the helmet plate signify region, looks like a bird, so maybe Bedfordshire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 June , 2023 Share Posted 23 June , 2023 Just now, Michelle Young said: Would the helmet plate signify region, looks like a swan, so maybe Bedfordshire? Yes the emblem at the centre of the helmet plate and often the waistbelt clasp is critical in identifying the constabulary. It might well be a Swan and if the OP can give us more information about the individual she’s named, such as his hometown, that will help narrow things down too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 23 June , 2023 Admin Share Posted 23 June , 2023 I can’t find any MIC for the surname Twitt, so doubtful he served in the Great War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 June , 2023 Share Posted 23 June , 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Michelle Young said: I can’t find any MIC for the surname Twitt, so doubtful he served in the Great War. I think it might be Birmingham City Police - shades of ‘Peaky Blinders’. Edited 23 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 23 June , 2023 Share Posted 23 June , 2023 (edited) The death of the 42 year old Montague Twitt was recorded in 1919 in the Axbridge District of Somerset. His entry in the 1919 UK Probate Calendars records he was a Coachsmith living at 2 Stanley Villas, Coronation Road, Worle, Somersetshire. He died on the 27th February 1919. The 1911 Census of England & Wales records him as born Worle and then living at 1 Stanley Villa. There are some contemporary Somersetshire Constabulary photographs here but none are clear enough to make much of a comparison. https://british-police-history.uk/f/somerset The Wikipedia page has a picture of a badge but doesn't date it and it looks too simple to have been is use either as a helmet plate or a belt buckle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerset_Constabulary A contemporary obituary in the local press may provide more. Also most cases in the local police courts and magistrates courts were prosecutions made by individual officers. Even if he was just a special there may well be court reports referring to him as the prosecuting officer or having "proved" the case, (i.e. given evidence). Cheers, Peter Edited 23 June , 2023 by PRC Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 June , 2023 Share Posted 23 June , 2023 (edited) 25 minutes ago, PRC said: The death of the 42 year old Montague Twitt was recorded in 1919 in the Axbridge District of Somerset. His entry in the 1919 UK Probate Calendars records he was a Coachsmith living at 2 Stanley Villas, Coronation Road, Worle, Somersetshire. He died on the 27th February 1919. The 1911 Census of England & Wales records him as born Worle and then living at 1 Stanley Villa. There are some contemporary Somersetshire Constabulary photographs here but none are clear enough to make much of a comparison. https://british-police-history.uk/f/somerset The Wikipedia page has a picture of a badge but doesn't date it and it looks too simple to have been is use either as a helmet plate or a belt buckle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerset_Constabulary A contemporary obituary in the local press may provide more. Also most cases in the local police courts and magistrates courts were prosecutions made by individual officers. Even if he was just a special there may well be court reports referring to him as the prosecuting officer or having "proved" the case, (i.e. given evidence). Cheers, Peter Brilliant work in your usual style Peter. I think that there must be some degree of doubt that the police constable in the photo is actually Montague Twitt. The more I squint at the insignia the more convinced I am that it is Birmingham. Somersetshire police seem to have favoured a [edit] blackened helmet plate during the ww1 era. One other that looks similar to the OP picture but not as close as Birmingham, is Newcastle Upon Tyne police (notice that there is greater voiding at the bottom). Edited 23 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordercollie Posted 23 June , 2023 Share Posted 23 June , 2023 17 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: I think that there must be some degree of doubt that the police constable in the photo is actually Montague Twitt. The more I squint at the insignia the more convinced I am that it is Birmingham. This is said to be an Edwardian Somerset Constabulary helmet. The helmet plate certainly doesnt look the same as the one in the original photograph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted 23 June , 2023 Share Posted 23 June , 2023 I agree that it is a Birmingham City Police helmet plate. Sadly, Montague Twitt only seems to be mentioned in official documents as living in Somerset. Hopefully, Charlotte can explain the attribution. Meanwhile I have emailed a BCP contact, and hopefully can give a name for PC 39 in D Division. Cheers, Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 June , 2023 Share Posted 23 June , 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Provost said: I agree that it is a Birmingham City Police helmet plate. Sadly, Montague Twitt only seems to be mentioned in official documents as living in Somerset. Hopefully, Charlotte can explain the attribution. Meanwhile I have emailed a BCP contact, and hopefully can give a name for PC 39 in D Division. Cheers, Richard Thank you Richard, I was wondering if the collar number holders could be traced, but had dismissed it from my mind, as I’d imagined that the numbers would be reissued, although I suppose that if there are nominal rolls for set periods still surviving then it might be possible to trace an ID. Edited 23 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlotteMM Posted 23 June , 2023 Author Share Posted 23 June , 2023 Thank you all so much for your input! I quizzed my grandfather shortly before he died on the photo album and he pegged this as Mont, who I have photos of when he is younger and they look like the same person (albeit older!). However, Mont had a brother, Alfred James Twitt…..who worked in Birmingham as a police officer! I have no photos of Alfred, but this sounds extremely likely! And explains the keen resemblance. Excellent detective work, I wasnt expecting that answer but I’m very pleased to finally have a photo of him! Charlotte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 June , 2023 Share Posted 23 June , 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, CharlotteMM said: Thank you all so much for your input! I quizzed my grandfather shortly before he died on the photo album and he pegged this as Mont, who I have photos of when he is younger and they look like the same person (albeit older!). However, Mont had a brother, Alfred James Twitt…..who worked in Birmingham as a police officer! I have no photos of Alfred, but this sounds extremely likely! And explains the keen resemblance. Excellent detective work, I wasnt expecting that answer but I’m very pleased to finally have a photo of him! Charlotte Thank you for the feedback Charlotte, not every poster does so and it is really appreciated by us all I think. There seems little doubt to me, given what you have said, that the photograph does indeed show Alfred Twitt. Edited 23 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlotteMM Posted 23 June , 2023 Author Share Posted 23 June , 2023 You’re most welcome, I am always blown away by the knowledge and the speed with which you can all solve decades of my family history mysteries! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 23 June , 2023 Share Posted 23 June , 2023 24 minutes ago, CharlotteMM said: However, Mont had a brother, Alfred James Twitt…..who worked in Birmingham as a police officer! Before I saw your reply I was checking out FindMyPast \ British Newspaper Archive using a search criteria Twitt, Constable, Birmingham, in case it turned up evidence of Montague serving - perhaps he'd gone to the Birmingham area to take up munition work and also signed up as a part-time special for example. While you've nixxed that, there are quite a few reports for the man who could be the brother. At that point the police also ran the fire brigade and the mortuary service cum ambulance, so it's good to know which part he worked for. I don't subscribe so unfortunately only have the as usual awful preview computer transcriptions to go on, but definately sounds like he was a bobby on the beat. Image courtesy FindMyPast. Apologies if none of that is news to you. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted 23 June , 2023 Share Posted 23 June , 2023 I have now heard back from my BCP contact who confirms the force. They have no Montague Twitt in their records, but have narrowed the date of the photo down to pre 1901 (when they changed from the spike to the more rounded top). Collar numbers were re-used, and they are not always recorded on their spreadsheet. As an aside, there were at least 24 members of the BCP from D Div serving in the Military Police Corps during the war (including D37 and D40). Cheers, Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlotteMM Posted 23 June , 2023 Author Share Posted 23 June , 2023 Thank you Richard and Peter, very informative! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 23 June , 2023 Share Posted 23 June , 2023 This clipping via Findmypast newspapers Birmingham Gazette dated 1907 refers to a Constable Twitt 39D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlotteMM Posted 23 June , 2023 Author Share Posted 23 June , 2023 Now I’ve got to try and work out why Montague didn’t go to war! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 23 June , 2023 Share Posted 23 June , 2023 Montague appears in a few clippings c1910 playing the violin in Worle, Somerset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlotteMM Posted 23 June , 2023 Author Share Posted 23 June , 2023 I have seen the violin articles but not the policing ones, thank you. I’m not really sure about Monts life. I had assumed he fought in the war but that now seems unlikely. I have a gift given to him by the Mayor of Weston super mare, Henry Butt, in 1917. He worked as a coachman so I assume he worked at his quarry then, but it’s all unknown. I’ve had no luck tracking down their connection as of yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 23 June , 2023 Share Posted 23 June , 2023 9 minutes ago, CharlotteMM said: He worked as a coachman Coachsmith per 1901 and 1911 census? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 June , 2023 Share Posted 23 June , 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, CharlotteMM said: Now I’ve got to try and work out why Montague didn’t go to war! The most likely cause is that he did not pass the medical, although standards were gradually lowered throughout the war and by 1918 were much less standardised, taking more of a square peg for square hole attitude and putting lower grade men into jobs requiring less fitness. The other possibility is if he was in a high value trade where he was more valuable to the war effort as a civilian, although that seems less likely from what you’ve said. P.S. Perhaps it would be nice to donate a digital copy of the photo to BCP if @Provost thinks that would be appreciated. Edited 23 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 23 June , 2023 Share Posted 23 June , 2023 1 hour ago, CharlotteMM said: Now I’ve got to try and work out why Montague didn’t go to war! Charlotte, Have you seen the cause(s) of death on the certificate? Given the date the mind automatically presumes Spanish Flu but he could have been unwell from some time and so below any of the standards for conscription. His profession may also have exempted him. The British Army was still mainly horse drawn even in 1918, while it's wooden aeroplane's were in part dependant on sub-sections contacted out to workshops of all sizes. I wasn't sure if there were any local employers who might be in that line of work, so went looking for more on Worle throughout the whole era. I found a piece on line called "A glimpse of Edwardian Worle" which had been written by a member of the local history society. It's doesn't mention anyone with the name Twitt, but other than a few mini-profiles it doesn't generally go down to that level of detail. Reason for bring it up is that on Page 101 it references that as well as the War Memorial in the High Street, featuring 28 names from the Great War, there is also a Roll of Honour in St Martin's church recording the 198 from the village who made a significant contribution to the war effort. According to Google the source site is not trusted, but their cached version can be seen here http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jqHy3cYyVJ8J:www.worlehistorysociety.net/app/download/5819569758/A%2BGlimpse%2Bof%2BEdwardian%2BWorle.pdf&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-b-d Unfortunately I've not been able to find a picture of it online Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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