2nd Battalion KSLI - May 1915

[Vince]

Morning

I am researching some past relatives who served in the Great War.

I know this is a big ask, but I am hoping to gain more info about battlefields visited as well as build a time line.

6529 Pte William Smith - Died 27/5/1915 - 2nd Battalion Kings Shropshire Light Infantry.

239 Pte A. Smith - Died 23/4/1915 - Army Cyclist Corp (5th Division Cyclist Corp)

These 2 relatives are my Great Great Grandfather and his son. 

I have been researching for some time and I am lucky enough to have a number of items, Soldiers Hand Book, the original medals as well as the original (death penny) that my Great Great Grandmother was given.

 

If anyone is able to post information or war diary's for either 2KSLI or Army Cyclist Corp around May 1915. That would be very much appreciated thankyou.

[charlie962]

Welcome to the forum, Vince.

War Diaries can still be downloaded for free if you register with National Archives.

Here's link to 2 Shropshire LI diary to Oct 1915.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353468

Charlie

[charlie962]

Ditto for 5th Divisional Cyclist Co.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352194

Edited 22 June , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

The service record for 239 Albert Smith has survived and can be found on FindmyPast and Ancestry, both of which are subscriber sites but you can get free access via local library perhaps? 

Looks like the record for his father was lost in the WW2 bombing of the storage warehouse.

Edited 22 June , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

59 minutes ago, Vince said:

Great Great Grandmother

Losing her husband and one of her sons in a short space of time. Very hard.

Edited 22 June , 2023 by charlie962

[Vince]

Hi Charlie962,

Thankyou for the quick reply.

I will have a look at the National Archives site. I do have ancestry (subscribed) and have been able to obtain some information.

Cheers

[Vince]

16 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Losing her husband and one of her sons in a short space of time. Very hard.

Yes it would have terrible for her. On a side story that is just as sad, my GG Grandmother was awarded the "death penny" and it was inscribed with "William Smith". As the story goes she was understandably upset that she had lost her son. However unbeknown to her, her husband A. Smith "Albert William Smith" had died one month earlier.

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, Vince said:

On a side story that is just as sad, my GG Grandmother was awarded the "death penny" and it was inscribed with "William Smith". As the story goes she was understandably upset that she had lost her son. However unbeknown to her, her husband A. Smith "Albert William Smith" had died one month earlier.

Seems possibly a colourful family story as the Memorial Plaques were sent out long after 1915, from 1919 iirc, so I would think she would have known about her husband's death by then.

M

[Matlock1418]

4 hours ago, Vince said:

6529 Pte William Smith - Died 27/5/1915 - 2nd Battalion Kings Shropshire Light Infantry.

239 Pte A. Smith - Died 23/4/1915 - Army Cyclist Corp (5th Division Cyclist Corp)

These 2 relatives are my Great Great Grandfather and his son.

I'm struggling with the relationship

From pension records at WFA/Fold3 ...

6529 Pte William Smith - Died 27/5/1915 - 2nd Battalion Kings Shropshire Light Infantry.

William/William Albert SMITH - Died of Wounds - Pension claimed by Mrs Eliza SMITH, mother - Documents received 18-1-16 - this relationship and her Hereford address matches CWGC https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/172455/william-smith

239 Pte A. Smith - Died 23/4/1915 - Army Cyclist Corp (5th Division Cyclist Corp)

Albert SMITH - Killed in Action - Pension claimed by Mrs Elizabeth Caroline SMITH [later KING], mother - Documents received 16-8-16 - addresses 23 Chattaway St, Nechells Park Rd., Birmingham and 42 St Clements Rd, Nechells, Birmingham - Recieved 5/- pw [a dependant's not a widow's rate - typical of one man]

= two "mother" claims.

[If a wife and mother one might have expected to see a joint claim but this is not seen, by me anyway]

???

M

Edited 22 June , 2023 by Matlock1418
add

[Vince]

44 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Seems possibly a colourful family story as the Memorial Plaques were sent out long after 1915, from 1919 iirc, so I would think she would have known about her husband's death by then.

M

Yes, I agree.

During my research I have found a few other small details missing that I just put down to poor communication between generations.

[Vince]

5 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

I'm struggling with the relationship

From pension records at WFA/Fold3 ...

6529 Pte William Smith - Died 27/5/1915 - 2nd Battalion Kings Shropshire Light Infantry.

William/William Albert SMITH - Died of Wounds - Pension claimed by Mrs Eliza SMITH, mother - Documents received 18-1-16 - this relationship and her Hereford address matches CWGC https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/172455/william-smith

239 Pte A. Smith - Died 23/4/1915 - Army Cyclist Corp (5th Division Cyclist Corp)

Albert SMITH - Killed in Action - Pension claimed by Mrs Elizabeth Caroline SMITH [later KING], mother - Documents received 16-8-16 - addresses 23 Chattaway St, Nechells Park Rd., Birmingham and 42 St Clements Rd, Nechells, Birmingham

= two mothers claiming.

If a wife and mother one might have expected to see a joint claim but this is not seen [by me anyway]

???

M

Wow,

Thankyou for this information. 

I will go back and see where the mothers names lead me in ancestry.

[charlie962]

5 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

I'm struggling with the relationship

From pension records at WFA/Fold3 ...

6529 Pte William Smith - Died 27/5/1915 - 2nd Battalion Kings Shropshire Light Infantry.

William/William Albert SMITH - Died of Wounds - Pension claimed by Mrs Eliza SMITH, mother - Documents received 18-1-16 - this relationship and her Hereford address matches CWGC https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/172455/william-smith

239 Pte A. Smith - Died 23/4/1915 - Army Cyclist Corp (5th Division Cyclist Corp)

Albert SMITH - Killed in Action - Pension claimed by Mrs Elizabeth Caroline SMITH [later KING], mother - Documents received 16-8-16 - addresses 23 Chattaway St, Nechells Park Rd., Birmingham and 42 St Clements Rd, Nechells, Birmingham - Recieved 5/- pw [a dependant's not a widow's rate - typical of one man]

= two "mother" claims.

[If a wife and mother one might have expected to see a joint claim but this is not seen, by me anyway]

???

M

Even odder is that this William Smith was only 17 when he died according to cwgc. 

Albert, 239, according to his service record was c17 when he enlisted Jan 1914 so these two may have been brothers but not father and son??

Both are

 

[charlie962]

Both are Nechells connected...

 

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Even odder is that this William Smith was only 17 when he died according to cwgc. 

Albert, 239, according to his service record was c17 when he enlisted Jan 1914 so these two may have been brothers but not father and son?

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Both are Nechells connected...

Can see above for Albert SMITH - Where finding Nechells for William SMITH?

239 ... SMITH, A/Albert all cards have an address including Nechells

Puzzling that there is a pension record for 6529 ... SMITH. William. Albert. - and there is another card for "SMITH William Albert" ... with See William - as well as another card SMITH, William with name from Wm Albert - as well as a card for just SMITH William - all cards with a Hereford address

To me that smacks of the MoP correcting themselves to just SMITH, William, but where the Albert on these 6529 cards came from is a puzzle [though a mother in common could perhaps be the solution - just I'm not seeing it from this source - but neither am I seeing husband/father and son].

M

Edit: Both pension claims appear to each have two Dependant's [typically for a mother for her son(s)] claim references of DP53 & 6/D/22456 [Albert] and DP70 & 11/D/78500 [William], and not a widow's claim reference, nor a combined reference(s)

Edited 22 June , 2023 by Matlock1418
Edit

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Where finding Nechells for William SMITH?

SDGW b Nechells

Edited 22 June , 2023 by charlie962

[Matlock1418]

59 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Where finding Nechells for William SMITH?

SDGW b Nechells

Given their dates of death

Albert SMITH, 23/4/15 - mother with Nechells address - Claim documents seems submitted to MoP 16-8-16

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

One can speculates the delay in claim was because he was considered missing before eventually being accepted as dead. CWGC has him on the Menin Gate https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/917219/a-smith/

and

William SMITH, 27/5/15 - mother with Hereford address - Claim documents seems submitted to MoP 18-1-16

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

Earlier claim appears likely due to knowledge of Died of Wounds circumstances of his death.  CWGC has him buried St. Severs Cemetery, Rouen  https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/172455/william-smith 

One might speculate that possibly:

Mrs Eliza/Elizabeth Caroline SMITH/KING, mother, either was living there or returned to either her or her husband's home territory of Hereford on her loss(es) ??? [I have a relative who returned temporarily close to her husband's family, on the loss of her husband, so why not if a mother had, quite possibly it seems, lost two sons ???]

and having gone to Hereford on her loss(es) then returned to Nechells by the time she got the claim for Albert SMITH returned

Further speculating possibly going to Hereford because she was already widowed ?????

Mrs KING of Nechells suggests that potentially she was widowed and remarried and lived there. [KING coming from a later 1924 annotated pension ledger page - SMITH, A. 239, ACC]

I hypothesise!

I think back to the OP/Vince or others to sort out the genealogy

M

Edit: This looks like confirmation of mother's remarriage, from FreeBMD

Surname	First name(s)	Spouse	District	Vol	Page
Marriages Dec 1916   (>99%)
King	William H	Smith	Aston	6d	847
Smith	Elizabeth C	King	Aston	6d	847

Aston is fairly close to Nechells [possibly was the same registration district in Birmingham]

Edited 22 June , 2023 by Matlock1418
correction

[Matlock1418]

A couple of suggested places to look:

Register of Soldier's Effects - should give you the name and likely relationship of the recipient [potentially the legatee] of their effects and War Gratuity

Probate Office - for a Will(s) https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills - I only found:

Last name   First name     Date of death    Regiment number

SMITH         WILLIAM         27 May 1915     6529

For a small fee you should be able to obtain a copy and see who was the legatee and see the man's signature - probably not much more.

 

Returning to FreeBMD comes up with a potential marriage for Elizabeth Caroline SMITH [nee SHEPHERD] to a James William SMITH

Surname	First name(s)		District	Vol	Page
Marriages Dec 1891   (>99%)
Shepherd	Elizabeth Caroline		Worcester	6c	485
Smith	James William		Worcester	6c	485

Worcester seems a possibility as approx. halfway between Hereford and Nechells, Birmingham ???

Again this marriage and husband's name are speculative.

If correct - what happened to James William SMITH ???

M

Edited 23 June , 2023 by Matlock1418
link for PO

[Vince]

Thank you @Matlock1418, and Charlie962,

You have both given me plenty of information to help with my research.

I will keep you updated with my progress.

Vince