Lewis Gunner and MG Badge

[Liam94]

Hi all,

I have a query concerning the badge that my great-grandfather, Edwin Earl, is wearing in the attached image. As far as I am aware he was a Lewis Gunner of the Cheshire Regiment's 9th Battalion, C Company (as of July 1916). 

Upon closer inspection he appears to be wearing a badge on his left sleeve with "MG" rather than "LG" and was wondering if it was possible that a Lewis gunner would wear this dress distinction? 

For context, Edwin was wounded on the Somme on 2nd/3rd July in the fighting around the Lochnagar Crater and La Boisselle  and returned to England for surgery. After this he was moved to the Cheshire Regiment's 1/4th Battalion. The attached photo was taken in Birkenhead, around Christmas 1916. 

If it isn't possible that a Lewis gunner would have worn an MG badge, then I wonder in turn if it's feasible that he changed role along with his Battalion, or would this have been unlikely? 

If anyone has any additional info that could help me out I would really appreciate it.

Thanks,

Liam 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Liam94 said:

Hi all,

I have a query concerning the badge that my great-grandfather, Edwin Earl, is wearing in the attached image. As far as I am aware he was a Lewis Gunner of the Cheshire Regiment's 9th Battalion, C Company (as of July 1916). 

Upon closer inspection he appears to be wearing a badge on his left sleeve with "MG" rather than "LG" and was wondering if it was possible that a Lewis gunner would wear this dress distinction? 

For context, Edwin was wounded on the Somme on 2nd/3rd July in the fighting around the Lochnagar Crater and La Boisselle  and returned to England for surgery. After this he was moved to the Cheshire Regiment's 1/4th Battalion. The attached photo was taken in Birkenhead, around Christmas 1916. 

If it isn't possible that a Lewis gunner would have worn an MG badge, then I wonder in turn if it's feasible that he changed role along with his Battalion, or would this have been unlikely? 

If anyone has any additional info that could help me out I would really appreciate it.

Thanks,

Liam 

After WW1, in 1922, the Machine Gun Corps responsible for operating the Vickers Gun since 1915/1916** was disbanded.  This was part of a general retrenchment to cut defence expenditure, but it also marked a determination by the regular army to get back to a peacetime regime of soldiering without losing too many of its longstanding and traditional regiments.  It was recognised though that there would continue to be a need for the tactical deployment of the Vickers gun and to achieve the long term and in depth expertise necessary it was decided to convert completely a handful of line infantry regiments into Machine Gun battalions.  The Cheshire Regiment was one of these, including its Territorial battalions.  The MG badge was generally only worn by men qualified on the Vickers Gun.  The collar badges also show that the photo was likely taken after 1922, when their wear on service dress was authorised across the Army and that also ties in with the previously unheard of policy of letting ranks below officer wear shoes rather than boots during walking out of barracks.

NB.  The odd thing is that he wears no medal ribbons but does have a wound stripe and a good conduct badge (inverted stripe for 2-years full time service without disciplinary infringement), which suggests a photo taken after 1916 and before 1918.  Some battalions did wear collar badges during the course of WW1, even though this was against regulations.  There are past threads about this.  In all cases they were either Territorials, or war-raised Service Battalions.  It would not be usual for a Lewis Gunner to wear a MG badge unless he had qualified on the Vickers Gun in the period before their operation was transferred over to the Machine Gun Corps and replaced within the infantry battalions by the Lewis Gun.  Each infantry battalion had initially had two Vickers (previously Maxim) Guns, subsequently increased to four before shortly after handing them over, along with most of the trained men, to the MGC.

**although officially formed in October 1915 the corps wasn’t really fully organised and coherent on the Western Front until 1916, the same year as the Foot Guards own, discrete Machine Gun Battalion, was created.

Edited 18 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Liam94]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

After WW1, in 1922 the Machine Gun Corps responsible for operating the Vickers Gun since 1916 was disbanded.  This was part of a general retrenchment to cut expenditure but it also marked a determination by the regular army to get back to a peacetime regime of soldiering without losing too many of its longstanding and traditional regiments.  It was recognised though that there would continue to be a need for the tactical deployment of the Vickers gun and to achieve the expertise necessary it was decided to convert completely a handful of line infantry regiments into Machine Gun battalions.  The Cheshire Regiment was one of these.  The MG badge was generally only worn by men qualified on the Vickers Gun.  The collar badges show that the photo was from after 1922 and that also ties in with the previously unheard of policy of letting ranks below officer wear shoes rather than boots during walking out of barracks.  

That's really interesting thank you for taking the time to respond. I'm going to have a dig around my materials and see if there's any reference to his use of a Vickers that I might've missed, having being concerned with Lewis guns instead. 

The only issue is that the postcard that this photo comes from is dated 1916, and my great grandfather was discharged from the army in 1918 after he lost part of his foot at Soissons in July that year.  He also received wounds to his foot and knee at the Somme, would that maybe have provided some leeway regarding the footwear he was allowed to wear during recovery in 1916? 

I'm absolutely no expert in uniform/insignia so thanks again for this information, I'm definitely going to approach my research here with a new lens

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Liam94 said:

That's really interesting thank you for taking the time to respond. I'm going to have a dig around my materials and see if there's any reference to his use of a Vickers that I might've missed, having being concerned with Lewis guns instead. 

The only issue is that the postcard that this photo comes from is dated 1916, and my great grandfather was discharged from the army in 1918 after he lost part of his foot at Soissons in July that year.  He also received wounds to his foot and knee at the Somme, would that maybe have provided some leeway regarding the footwear he was allowed to wear during recovery in 1916? 

I'm absolutely no expert in uniform/insignia so thanks again for this information, I'm definitely going to approach my research here with a new lens

I can only assume that he had originally trained on the Vickers Gun in early 1916, or that the MG badge was the only one available to him, but quite frankly the latter is most unlikely as there were thousands of badges in circulation and many men were so proud of earning them that they purchased their own.

It is entirely possible that following his wound he had been “excused boots”, a not at all unusual event and that would explain his appearance.

Edited 18 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Liam94]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I can only assume that he had originally trained on the Vickers Gun in early 1916, or that the MG badge was the only one available to him, but quite frankly the latter is most unlikely as their were thousands of badges and many men were so proud of them that they purchased their own.

It is entirely possible that following his wound he had been “excused boots” a not at all unusual event and that would explain his appearance.

I have a document that shows target practise results from 1914, that may potentially detail the weapon used, I'll have a look and see and update here.

Thanks again for your help I really appreciate it.

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, Liam94 said:

I have a document that shows target practise results from 1914, that may potentially detail the weapon used, I'll have a look and see and update here.

Thanks again for your help I really appreciate it.

It seems likely given the circumstances that he trained on the Vickers before the gun was handed to the MGC.  The replacement within the infantry battalions was the Lewis Gun and it would have been natural for any legacy machine gunners to convert to the Lewis.

Edited 18 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Andrew Upton]

5 hours ago, Liam94 said:

Hi all,

I have a query concerning the badge that my great-grandfather, Edwin Earl, is wearing in the attached image. As far as I am aware he was a Lewis Gunner of the Cheshire Regiment's 9th Battalion, C Company (as of July 1916). 

Upon closer inspection he appears to be wearing a badge on his left sleeve with "MG" rather than "LG" and was wondering if it was possible that a Lewis gunner would wear this dress distinction? 

For context, Edwin was wounded on the Somme on 2nd/3rd July in the fighting around the Lochnagar Crater and La Boisselle  and returned to England for surgery. After this he was moved to the Cheshire Regiment's 1/4th Battalion. The attached photo was taken in Birkenhead, around Christmas 1916. 

If it isn't possible that a Lewis gunner would have worn an MG badge, then I wonder in turn if it's feasible that he changed role along with his Battalion, or would this have been unlikely? 

If anyone has any additional info that could help me out I would really appreciate it.

Thanks,

Liam 

Liam - the Lewis Gunner badge was only officially introduced by Army Order 80 of February 1917 (together with the Hotchkiss Gunner badge). Prior to this date the MG badge was used to cover a variety of weapons (with resulting confusion). So your photo date of late 1916 fits perfectly with having qualified as a Lewis Gunner but wearing the MG badge still prior to the new regulations being introduced.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Liam94 said:

I have a document that shows target practise results from 1914, that may potentially detail the weapon used, I'll have a look and see and update here.

Thanks again for your help I really appreciate it.

Liam, Andrew is quite correct and I should really have checked the dates introducing the badges into use.  Here are the references, which you might find interesting.

Edited 18 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Liam94]

19 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

Liam - the Lewis Gunner badge was only officially introduced by Army Order 80 of February 1917 (together with the Hotchkiss Gunner badge). Prior to this date the MG badge was used to cover a variety of weapons (with resulting confusion). So your photo date of late 1916 fits perfectly with having qualified as a Lewis Gunner but wearing the MG badge still prior to the new regulations being introduced.

 

19 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Liam, Andrew is quite correct and I should really have checked the dates introducing the badges into use.  Here are the references, which you might find interesting.

Brilliant! This certainly seems to clear this up then. Big thanks to both of you for your help