Royal Navy - Pensioner and Boy Bug[ler?]

[Ian Burns]

I have a crew list for HMS Ben-my-Chree when she was sunk at Castellorizo in January 1917.

It is fairly normal - RN, RNAS, T-124, etc- but a 'Pensioner, Armourer' (Edmund Roach) and 'T-124Z (seamen) Boy, Bug.' (presumably Bugler - A. Bruce) stand out.

The RN pre-war recruited Boys from the age of 14, but what is T-124Z and how does it relate to a Boy RN?

Also, a 'Pensioner' under what terms would such a rate exist?

I'm not sure if these are the correct questions, so any information on the subject of Boys and Pensioners in RN service during WW1 would be welcome.

[FROGSMILE]

On 18/06/2023 at 00:24, Ian Burns said:

I have a crew list for HMS Ben-my-Chree when she was sunk at Castellorizo in January 1917.

It is fairly normal - RN, RNAS, T-124, etc- but a 'Pensioner, Armourer' (Edmund Roach) and 'T-124Z (seamen) Boy, Bug.' (presumably Bugler - A. Bruce) stand out.

The RN pre-war recruited Boys from the age of 14, but what is T-124Z and how does it relate to a Boy RN?

Also, a 'Pensioner' under what terms would such a rate exist?

I'm not sure if these are the correct questions, so any information on the subject of Boys and Pensioners in RN service during WW1 would be welcome.

Forum experts who will I know be able to help are @horatio2 , @KizmeRDand@RNCVR.  I’m sure that one of them will be along soon, but it’s late here in the U.K. and you might have to wait until tomorrow. I can say that Boy ratings did serve on operational ships, as my great uncle was one.  Boy Bugler was one of the rates.  The majority of each ships complement below the rank of commissioned officer during WW1 statistically started as Boy Ratings.  The first year as Boy 2nd Class was spent training on a hulk training ship and the second year assuming normal progression was spent as Boy 1st Class on a ship in ordinary.  Many Boys were lost in action, sometimes in quite large numbers, as with e.g. the loss of Hogue, Crecy and Aboukir and also at the battles of the Coronel and Jutland.  Qualified Armourers were in short supply when WW1 broke out and in the Army many retired (time served) men were reengaged.  I suspect that the Royal Navy were obliged to do the same by reengaging suitable naval pensioners. 

Edited 23 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[busterfield]

As FROGSMILE says about reengaged. Edund Roach from National Archives.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6686474

[horatio2]

10 hours ago, Ian Burns said:

T-124Z and how does it relate to a Boy RN?

Not RN but MMR. Forms T.124 were signed by men of the Mercantile Marine Reserve (MMR)  to bring them under the Naval Discipline Act. The MMR Medal Roll records:-

Boy Bugler (B. Bugr.) (MMR) Alan BRUCE qualified for  a trio of medals for service in BEN-MY-CHREE. The medals were claimed by and issued to the legal representative of his father.

Pensioner, Armourer' (Edmund Roach)

RN Pensioners  could join Class 'A' of the Royal Fleet Reserve. Pensioners did not incur any fresh liability by enrolling in Class A. of the Reserve. As Pensioners they were already liable to be called upon by the Admiralty to serve in the Fleet in an emergency. I cannot see an RFR 'A' number in his record, so I expect he came under the latter category, or pre-empted recall by volunteering.

Edited 18 June , 2023 by horatio2

[horatio2]

The original Form T.124 provided for six months service in a named ship. It was later modified as T.124Z to cover 'duration of the war' service in any vessel. T.124Z service also earned a bonus - ten shillings per month, I believe.

[KizmeRD]

At the risk of getting pedantic, at the start of tue war there were just plain T.124 agreements, introduced for members of the mercantile marine who voluntarily agreed to continue to serve on a ship that had been taken into naval service (initially for a period not exceeding six months) - carrying on their previous role onboard, albeit now under naval discipline.
Later (sometime in 1916 onwards) a number of T.124 variations were introduced. The majority of merchant seamen on the MMR medal role got moved on to ‘T.124X’ agreements, which differed from the earlier T.124 agreements (those without suffix) in that the new form of agreement was no longer limited either in duration, or to service in a specified (named) ship. Therefore men signing the revised transport agreements were now liable to serve on naval auxiliaries for the entire duration of the war and could be transferred on to other similar ships if the need arose.
Other T.124 variations included T.124Y agreements for professional yachtsmen and boatmen, T.124Z agreements for professional fishermen, T.124T agreements for rescue tug crews, T.299Z agreements for specific service in Admiralty Fleet Auxiliaries and ‘CSP IX’ agreements for those serving on Government cable ships.

Ian - do you have any additional details relating to Boy bug. Bruce (his full name, d.o.b. home town, or service number) - only I’d like to research him in more detail. 
 

MB

[KizmeRD]

For interest, see photo below (in public domain) of Ben-my-chree at Castellorizo shortly after being hit by Turkish artillery fire.

The other ship in the photo is most probably the French destroyer Pierrer.

MB

 

[horatio2]

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

The other ship in the photo is most probably the French destroyer Pierrer.

What a sad sight!

In his Cross and Cockade (Spring 2017) article on the sinking (and in his earlier book), Ian Burns (OP) identifies the French boat as "Torpilleur de Défense Mobile 250."

Edited 18 June , 2023 by horatio2

[KizmeRD]

Could well be a smaller TDM- difficult to judge size from the photo.

My only reason for suggesting PIERER was the fact that she accompanied BEN-MY-CHREE from Port Said to the island.

MB

[horatio2]

From the log of EURYALUS  -  "19 August 1916, At Ismailia. ... 1 armourer [ROACH]  to BEN-MY-CHREE."

[KizmeRD]

Good find regarding Roach h2. 

And as for Boy Bruce, if its true that he signed a T.124Z agreement then it might possibly suggest that he was ‘borrowed’ from one of the trawlers or drifters based at Port Said. (Perhaps he learnt to play a bugle from being a Sea Cadet or something similar, as its not a skill ordinarily required in the mercantile marine or fishing industry) that said, I have a nagging doubt whether T.124Z agreements existed prior to 1918. (as up until the establishment of the Fishery Reserve, the normal enrolment route for fishermen was to join the RNR Trawler Section). Will need to dig deeper to resolve this (could it be that the ‘z’ is a transcription error?).

MB

Edited 18 June , 2023 by KizmeRD

[horatio2]

I agree that (if T.124Z was, indeed, only applicable to the fishing fleet) a move from a trawler, where he would have been employed as a deck boy (or, possibly, as a boy cook), to MMR seems an oddity if RNR was a local option.

My sources vary but I get the impression that the T.124Z was instituted much earlier in the war when it became apparent that the earlier MMR/T.124 men were applying for release after six months (as was their right) in large numbers. The inablity to move these men between ships was also a problem.

Whatever the reality (and transfer from a Med trawler is a real possibilty) MMR bugle boys seeem to have been pretty thin on the ground to judge by a quick scan of the MMR medal roll. And we have the usual problem of finding an MMR record. This may prove a hard nut to crack.

[horatio2]

A possible ID?   -   https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7984477     A hard-to read MM medal card in the name of Allan BRUCE. Posssible for:- 

(a) mention of T.124 ;

(b) notation "DECEASED" which may link to the MMR Roll entry for Alan BRUCE:- "The medals were claimed by and issued to the legal representative of his father." as noted earlier and

(c) d.o.b. 1900)

No CWGC entry has been found.

Edited 18 June , 2023 by horatio2

[horatio2]

And another thought: if the T.124Z was more widely applicable than just the fishing fleet (could this have beeen WW2 only?) then is it possible that he was part of the original crew of BEN-MY-CHREE?

Edited 18 June , 2023 by horatio2

[KizmeRD]

I’ve been looking at the entries in the ship’s logbook and the only time I see Bruce’s name mentioned is when the ship was in Port Said 29 June 1916 “11.00am: Bruce, Boy, discharged to Island”. (And he may have been one of four ratings returned on 6th July).  
- Any guesses what ‘discharged to island’ might have meant.

MB

[horatio2]

45 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

- Any guesses what ‘discharged to island’ might have meant.

The BEN-MY-CHREE log has numerous references to this "Island" at Port Said, with frequent comings and goings of personnel, aircraft and equipment/stores.. I assume it is some sort of shore base/facility.

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

The BEN-MY-CHREE log has numerous references to this "Island" at Port Said, with frequent comings and goings of personnel, aircraft and equipment/stores.. I assume it is some sort of shore base/facility.

There is a little island labelled by the French as “Chantier Des Blocs”.  This map is from 1914.  It wasn’t there in 1894, or 1901.

Edited 18 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[horatio2]

A good candidate for the "Island", part of the French Naval Base and seaplane base.

[Ian Burns]

Whoa! Slow down everybody... I seem to have pushed a 'button', which has been more than answered.

A few comments from my end.

1) Ben-my-Chree burning. I stand by my identification of TDM 250 from 2017. Pierrier was in the harbour when the shelling commenced, together with BmC, TDM 250 and amiral Spitz’s yacht Ariane. Pierrier was quickly away, apparently smashing through an anti-torpedo boom, followed by Spitz’s yacht. TDM 250 took some time to raise steam and did not clear the harbour until 16.30. BmC was well on fire by 14.30.

2) The Island Base of the East Indies and Egypt Seaplane Squadron. This was originally 'Island Number 3' the smallest island at the end of the line of coaling islands shown in the map above. It was allocated to the EIESS by the Administration Office, Port Said, at the end of January 1916. It remained in use until the end of the war. The photo shows it in 1918 with three Bessonneau Hangars.

Regarding the Boy and the Pensioner I need to sift through all your answers. But there is much more than I expected.

For now the attached photo may be of interest. Showing a 'Boy' and one (or two?) pensioners. Date is sometime in 1917, taken on the island. The boy may be Alan Bruce?

Thanks for all the replies.

Ian

[KizmeRD]

And I presume that that is also the ship’s dog in the boy’s arms (who fortunately survived the shelling). 

MB

[Ian Burns]

Not necessarily.

Ben-my-Chree had both cats and dogs.

The island was also home to quite a menagerie - dogs, cats, a monkey, a gazelle, and others!

[KizmeRD]

Capt. Wedgwood Benn described the island thus (*)…

Our habitat was a portion of one of the sand islands which had been created by the dredging of the harbour. I believe we were never ‘recognised’ by the Admiralty, but owed what de facto existence we enjoyed to the energetic colonising skill of Colonel Malone. We lived in the usual military huts and had our workshop, intelligence office, photographic department, hangars and slipways all within a camp of about an acre in extent.

(*) In the side shows.

MB

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Capt. Wedgwood Benn described the island thus (*)…

Our habitat was a portion of one of the sand islands which had been created by the dredging of the harbour. I believe we were never ‘recognised’ by the Admiralty, but owed what de facto existence we enjoyed to the energetic colonising skill of Colonel Malone. We lived in the usual military huts and had our workshop, intelligence office, photographic department, hangars and slipways all within a camp of about an acre in extent.

(*) In the side shows.

MB

All ducks are nicely in a row now.  Is Captain Wedgwood Benn of the famous political family?

Edited 18 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[KizmeRD]

Yes, indeed, both he, his son and his Grandson were British MP’s…, as was Ben-my-chree’s first commanding officer (Lt. Cdr. L’Estrange-Malone) - the UK’s first Communist MP!

MB

Edited 18 June , 2023 by KizmeRD
His Grandson is Hilary Benn

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Yes, indeed, both he and his son were MP’s…, as was Ben-my-chree’s first commanding officer (Lt. Cdr. L’Estrange-Malone) - the UK’s first Communist MP!

MB

Fascinating stuff.  Thank you.