West Yorkshire regiment 9th Bn (prince of wales`s

[Guest scorpioaj]

The passing of my farther and the discovery of a plaque has left me with a mystery? So far I have found out that the plaque is of my great, great grandfather.

Jonah James Martin service # 15519 who died on the 25/09/1916 and is buried in the Ovillers Military Cemetry.

Some of my questions.

1. My whole family lived in london why was he in the West Yourkshire Reg

2. What was the 9th battalion

3. How can I find out when he was called up.

4. Did they go to a boot camp ? where.

5. How long was he in france before he was killed and what was his movements.

6. Where was he when he died.

This is the start of my journey I hope the members with their vast knowledge can help and educate me.

[Stebie9173]

I'll start you off and hopefully other Pals will take you further...

The first port of call for soldiers who died is usually the Commonwealth war Graves Commision (CWGC) site.

There are 126 J Martins killed in 1916, but fortunately we know his Regiment and number so this is his commemoration:

http://www.cwgc.org/cwgcinternet/casualty_...casualty=546028

since you have some details, you may have found this already?

Next, we can find his Medal Index Card (MIC) which tells us what Campaign Medals he was entitled to:

These cost £3.50 to download. If you visit the National Archives at Kew, you can look at it for free.

It will also tell us when he arrived in a "Theatre of War" e.g. France, if before 31.12.1915 (arrival in a ToW before this date would have entitled him to either the 1914 or 1914-15 Star) If the date is blank he arrived after 1.1.1916.

There are some other details on the cards like the Battalion and Regiment, but you already have that.

The only sure way to know when he volunteered (conscription for married men did not arrive until June 1916, and with up to 6 months training, his enlistment would have been very unlikely to have fallen within this time frame) is to find his Service Records. These are not online. You will need to visit Kew (or get someone to do it for you). Unfortunately, only 40% of these still exist (they were burnt in the Blitz).

The 9th Battalion were a "New Army" battalion, comprised at the outset of Volunteers who answered Lord Kitchener's call to arms in late 1914 and 1915. K1 denotes a battalion whose first members were part of "The First Hundred Thousand". Later in the war, conscripts would also have joined these battalions as reinforcements. None of the New Army battalions existed prior to the war.

The 9th Battalion were in 32nd Brigade, 11th (Northern) Division.

The 11th Division served at Galllipoli in 1915, before heading to France in July 1916 and taking part in the later battles of the Somme.

Your g-g-grandfather would have died just after the Battle of Flers-Courcellete referred to on the 11th Division page. This battle ended 22-9-1916.

The battle of Morval began on 25th September 1916 east of Flers. Meanwhile, about 4 miles west of that battle the Reserve Army prepared to launch a subsidiary attack on Thiepval Ridge.

The 11th Division was involved in that Reserve Army engagement near Thiepval on the 26th fighting at Mouquet Farm, between Thiepval (to its west) and Pozieres (east). The 32nd Brigade was the Reserve Brigade in this attack.

This is purely speculation, but it is possible that your great-great-grandafther died in the build up to the battle as the Brigade occupied the trenches in preparation for the attack, possibly by shelling or sniper fire?

This would be entirely consistent with his burial at Ovillers which is about a mile south of Mouquet Farm.

Someone with access to the Battalion War diary can hopefully tell you exactly what the 9th were doing on that day.

Kew holds War Diaries for the Battalion, the Brigade and Division to let you know exactly were and when the units fought. These War Diaries only very rarely mention the lower ranks.

To get you started and give you a feel of the Battalions actions, there is a Topic here which details an extract of the Regiments War History, from 14th September 1916, as posted by Forum Member Kevin (The 2 Volume History is a Snip at about £50 a copy)

 

Finally, there is a resource CD called Soldiers Died Great War (SDGW) which is an even bigger snip at £300 ) There are quite a few member here (not me)who have a copy. If no-one picks up on your post, you might want to request a "lookup".

Hope this helps.

Steve.

PS Your local time is 5 hours before BST. You referred to "Boot Camp". Let me guess your location. East Coast USA?

[Chris Noble]

Hi.

I think Steve has pretty much said what you need to do

You really need to consult the various War Diaries at Kew, but, as Steve has already mentioned, they rarely seem to mention lower ranks unfortunately.

The Soldiers Died CD Rom shows that on the day in question, the battalion suffered 3 Other Ranks killed in action, with another dying of wounds at Puchevillers, probably at one of the Casualty Clearing Stations located there at this time.

It is interesting to note, that only one of the casualties actually came from Yorkshire, the other 3 from London, Warwickshire and Lincolnshire respectively. The battalion had suffered very heavy losses at Gallipoli in 1915, and, like so many other County Regiments at this stage of the war, had begun to lose its regional identity so to speak. When a battalion had sustained heavy casualties, large drafts of men were brought in, irrespective of regiment, to replace them.

As regards how these men were killed i can only concur with Steve. The Division did not go into the attack until 12.25 p.m on the 26th. I'm away from my books right now but i think the attack was led by the 33rd and 34th Brigades with the 32nd Brigade (including 9 W.Yrks.) in Divisional Reserve, they were not called into the attack, i believe, until the 27th, Kevin will be able to put you right on that! Maybe they were possibly hit by enemy shell fire, just a thought?

One thing that puzzles me. I can't seem to find the details on one of the casualties on the CWWG site? A Private John Richard Firth 19231 or am i missing something?

If kevin doesn't happen to see this post, i have the Regimental History by Wyrall at home and can scan you some info. I know Kevin has been busy compiling a Data Base of all West Yorks casualties, so, good luck that man!!

Regards, Chris.

[Hambo]

Just to mention that the soldiers died records confirm that he was born in Fulham and also, interestingly, enlisted there.

Hambo

[kevin]

Hi

Well with a 15--- number i would put him in Gallipoli then on to Egypt then to France on the 1st of July 1916 landing at Marseilles.

4th July, Arrived at St.Pol marched to Croisette,remained in Billets.

9th July, Moved to Averboignt.

10th July, Moved to Agnez-les-Duisans four miles West of Arras for instruction(training).

End of July marched from Daneville to relieve the 6th Yorkshire Regiment in 'G' sector.

21st Aug, Marched to Simencourt and Manin, billeted in the village(training in dril, bayonet fighting,bomb throwing and rapid wiring)

2nd Sept, Moved Southwards to the Somme area

4th Sept, Located in the Arqueves area.

7th Sept, Relieved the 75th Inf Brigade in the Leipzig Salient.

8th Sept Heavy shellingfrom the enemy,four o/r's killed and nine wounded.

10th Sept, Relieved and marched back to Crucifix Corner,in reserve.

14th Sept, Took over the front line trenches from the 6th York and Lancasters

look in this link for the engament.

 

16th Sept,Marched back to Hedauville for rest.

27th Sept, Divisional Reserve about Crucifix Corner.

So as you can see on the 25th the Battalion was in rest and not the front line,and as Chis as said only three o/ranks where killed on this day, and i all so go along with Chis's guess that these men where killed by shelling.

Also a call to the NA or the Regiments Museum at York might turn something up in the war diary as these men might be mention by name or just a number, but this will give you greater detail of what was happening that day and the Location of the Battalion.

On a footnote in my research into the West Yorks there is a lot of men from the London area who where direct intakes and not transfers.

Hope this is of some help.

Regards Kevin.

If i can be of anymore help please let me know.

[Stebie9173]

Kevin,

I noticed that the Regimental History post both you and I refer to states that the 9th landed in Marseilles on the 14th. Your post above says the 1st. Looking at the other dates, I guess your post above is the correct one?

Those Regimental Histories, despite their cost, must be worth their weight in gold to a researcher, though

Steve.

By the way, Chris.

Order of battle at Thiepval Ridge was 33rd Bde. on left, 34th on right (due South of Mouquet Farm), with Canadian 2nd & 3rd Bdes. to right (1st Div.) and 18th Div (54 Bde., left 53rd Bde. right) to 11 Div's left both due south of Thiepval with 49 Div. west of Thiepval in Thiepval Wood (or it's remains)

Scorpioaj,

To sort of answer your first question, my great-uncle Herbert, below, was from Peterborough, enlisted in London and served in the 9th Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) - Scottish Regiment! Coincidentally, he was mortally wounded at Arras, 88 years ago today...

[Chris Noble]

Cheers Steve.

I'll raise a glass to Herbert tonight, gone, but not forgotten.

Remembering.

Chris.

[harneyn]

I have done my homework and have found a Great Uncle Luke Lowry of Selby Yorkshire who served in the 9th Yorkshire at Gallipoli.

According to the National Archives and the Commonwealth Graves commission he was an expatriated POW. In all my research I find only two mentions of any POW's:

One is in reference to the Sandringham Missing Battalion 12 August 1915

Captain A.G. Coxon and 2nd. Lieutenant W.G.S. Fawkes were both wounded during the advance of 12 August 1915.

They were taken as prisoners by the Turks and held in prison until after The Armistice in 1918.

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~tipperaryfame/vanished.htm

and Australians:

http://www.awm.gov.au/stolenyears/ww1/turkey/index.asp

Reports 9 Aug 1915

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1915/gallpoli.html

Any ideas on finding more info?

TIA,

Ann

[Chris Noble]

Hi Ann.

Have you downloaded his Medal Index Card?

Regards, Chris.

[Stebie9173]

Cheers Steve.

I'll raise a glass to Herbert tonight, gone, but not forgotten.

Remembering.

Chris.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cheers, Chris.

You're a gentleman.

Steve.

[harneyn]

Yes, I do have the medal card. No mention of anything relating to being a POW.

Silver War Badge 02: The Silver War Badge - discharge due to

wounds, age, infirmity or sickness

Victory Medal, British Medal, 15 Star

Served in the Balkans 11/7/1915

Balkans 2/9/15

Catalogue reference WO 372/12

His memorial, read on the CWG site says:

Name: LOWRY, LUKE

Initials: L

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment: West Yorkshire Regt. (Prince of Wales's Own)

Unit Text: 9th (Yorkshire Hussars) Bn

Age: 30

Date of Death: 28/03/1919

Service No: 10684

Additional information: Son of Augustine and Catherine Lowry, of 4, Burton's Yard, Church Lane, Selby. A repatriated Prisoner of War.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: 4400.

Cemetery: SELBY CEMETERY

[Stebie9173]

Meanwhile, back at Private Martin....

Since we believe that Private Martin saw action at Gallipoli then the landings at Nibrunesi Beach at Suvla Bay would possibly have been his "baptism of fire".

The initial landings at Gallipoli had taken place in late April with the British and French landing at the southern tip of the Galliploi Penisula at Cape Helles, and the ANZACs on the west coast at what became known as ANZAC Cove. All the landings made progress but reverted to trench warfare before long. The landings at Suvla Bay were intended to break the deadlock.

The landings happened on the night of the 6th & 7th August 1915, some four miles north of ANZAC Cove.

The 32nd Brigade landed south of Nibrunesi Point with 33 Brigade to their south. 34 Brigade was supposed to land to the north of the dry salt lake but landed on the spit that formed the lakes entrance. From there 11 Division headed towards Chocolate Hill, but command decisions held them up and the Turks reinforced the Hill before the Division could attack.

The British did link up with the ANZAC forces but the hoped for breakout never occured and the Allied Forces withdrew from Suvla at the end of 1915. 11 Division formed part of the rearguard as the British evacuated between 10th and 19th December 1915. Not one man was killed in the stealthy withdrawal. The rest of Gallipoli was evacuated in early January 1916.

The Division then returned to Egypt and onto France and the Somme.

Here are a couple of link regarding the Suvla landings:

http://www.iwm.org.uk/upload/package/2/gal...i/suvlaopen.htm

http://www.exwar.org/Htm/8000PopC5.htm

A little more detail for your great-great-grandfathers history, I hope.

Steve.

[harneyn]

Medal cards for Luke Lowry...

The entry Theatre of War first served in: 12b/Balkans

Does this tell you more than just the Balkans?

He served in four different battalions...

Two sets of medals ....

Or

Were there two Luke Lowry's in the 9th West Yorkshire?

Thanks!

Ann

D**n and blast it! Ann, in trying to tidy up your two posts I have accidentally deleted the second MIC. I'm sorry. Can you re-post it? Chris

[Max]

Hello Harneyn

I think that you have a bit of a mystery here. I say that because no Bn of the West Yorks landed in the Balkans as early as the 11/7/1915. I think that the only way that you will be able to clear this up is by checking the medal rolls proper and verifying the details that they hold.

Andy

[Stebie9173]

Max,

As is being discussed on the other Topic Harneyn has on this subject (in Other Theatres) the 9th West Yorks disembarked at Lemnos on the 11th July 1915, hence they entered the overarcing Balkans Theatre of War there.

The topic is here:

 

These certainly seem to be two seperate Luke Lowrys, one transferred to Reserve and the other discharged from duty.

Per the 1901 Census there were 4 Luke Lowrys in the whole of England, 3 of which were born in Selby, Yorkshire ! (ages 36, 23 and 11)

Steve.

[Max]

These certainly seem to be two seperate Luke Lowrys, one transferred to Reserve and the other discharged from duty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Steve

You are of course quite right about Lemnos, but wouldn't the theatre of war first entered into be Egypt as that is where they stopped over before moving onto Lemnos?

The two men listed on the MICs look to be seperate and distinct but don't you find the details slightly odd. For instance, the Luke Lowry shown on CWGC as dying on 28/3/1919 and given the number 10684 actually looks like 11455/6556/268444 Luke Lowry who, according to his MIC also died in 1919. I suspect that there has been some sort of mix up here.

Andy

[Stebie9173]

Andy,

The MIC stating "died" reads to me as "Class Z, Service, er, D...something, 25-2-19" which I have always read as being transferred to the reserve with obligation to return in case of resumption of hostilities. The date is actually 2 days after the transfer of my great-uncle Walter to same.

I can see how we could interpret the D...something as died, but I think it means something else.

Steve.

PS I hope Scorpioaj doesn't mind us hijacking his Topic...

[harneyn]

Luke Lowry

Age: 30

Date of Death: 28/03/1919

Service No: 10684

Additional information: Son of Augustine and Catherine Lowry, of 4, Burton's Yard, Church Lane, Selby. A repatriated Prisoner of War.

would be my g-uncle. The CWG says service number 10684, the medal card says regiment number 10684.

The three in the 1901 census: my Luke was 11yrs in Sherburn in Elmet. Curious about the others.

In searching the medal cards index, there were seven Lowry's listed, none seemingly in the same regiment. I only got Luke- there was an officer A. E. E. Lowry. As I am in the US, do not think I can read the original records.

The posting of scorpioaj has given me many leads! Sorry if it seems a hi-jack.

Good example of:

'There are two kinds of knowledge: knowing; and knowing where to find out'.

Dr Samuel Johnson

We are learning where to find out!!

Thanks!

Ann

[Stebie9173]

Ann, Census info for you.

1901 Census - High Street aka Sweet Street, Sherburn in Elmet

Catherine Lowry, 49, Head, Widow, Agricultural Labourer

John Lowry, 28, Son, Married, General Labourer

Margaret Lowry, 30, daughter in law, married, wife of John

Rose Lowry, 5, daughter of John & Margaret

Augustine Lowry, 3, son of J&M

Christopher Lowry, 1, son of J&M

Margaret Lowry, 22, Daughter

Eliza Lowry, 18, daughter

Augustine Lowry, 14, Son

Luke Lowry, 11, Son

All born Selby, living Sherburn in Elmet

Birth Cert : Luke Lowry, born Selby, March qtr 1890, Vol 9c, Page 794

The 36 year old Luke Lowry was born in Selby and lived in Hilderthorpe, Yorkshire, he was head of family, a bricklayer, married to Margaret (27), with children John (5) and Lawrence (4)

The 23 year old Luke Lowry was born in Selby and was boarding in Manchester.

1891 Census

Arthur Lowry, 40, born Ireland, General Labourer

Catherine Lowry, 38, born Selby.

John Lowry, 19, Agricultural Labourer

Bridget Lowry, 15, undecipherable!

Margaret Lowry, 13, scholar

Mary Lowry, 11

Eliza Lowry, 8

Arthur Lowry, 5

Luke Lowry, 1

The Arthurs are supposed to be Augustines I think and the dates fit, but

the census says Arthur on the original.

1881 - All down as far as Mary (though Bridget listed as born in Rochdale). Living at 12 Couplands Yard, Selby. Head named as Arthur.

1871 - Arthur Lowry not found. Still in Ireland? John Lowry born 1872...

Does this help you, at all?

Steve.

PS I found that quote for my signature following one of the leads from here. Kind of appropriate, I thought...

[harneyn]

Thanks a bunch!

Yes Arthur is Austin and Augustine at varying times. Did find Austin Lowery in Selby in 1871.. he married in Leeds.

Guess I can say that I have learned where Luke served, but the two medal cards and the POW reference are still a mystery. Must say I have learned lots in a little time.

Great thing this Internet!

Again my thanks! Any clues greatfully accepted and acknowledged!

Ann

[harneyn]

Reposting 2nd Lowry medal card.

[Stebie9173]

Ann and Andy,

My take on the two MICs.

1.

Luke Lowry, Anns ancestor, 9th Battalion West Yorkshire Regiment, reg number 10684, headed to the Balkans/Dardenelles, disembarked at Lemnos on 11th July 1915 and entered Threatre of War, landed at Gallipoli at Suvla Bay, 6-8-1916, was wounded, taken prisoner of war, discharged from duty due to wounds, died 28 March 1919 due to wounds and was therefore honoured as War Dead.

2.

Luke L Lowry, joined West Yorkshire Regiment (probably in 9th Battalion since I think that that was the only WY battalion in Gallipoli, but MIC doesn't say so), reg number 11455, headed to Gallipoli arriving 2nd September 1915, later transferred to Territorial Battalion, either 1/7th or 2/7th (see later), reg number 6556, and then on 1st March 1917 was renumbered to 268044 which is a TF number allocated to the 7th Battalion. This Luke Lowry served to the end of the War and was then transferred to "Z Class Reserve" 25-2-1919 or 25-3-1919 (I can't make my mind up on the date) and went home.

The "5" of 25-3-19 could be read as an "8" but the service number 6556 above is the same and is definitely "5"s not "8"s.

The death / reserve dates are awfully close (especially if to Z Reserve in March) but different, I think. My opinion is coincidence. It wouldn't be the weirdest coincidence of the War, either.

By the way, another Luke Lowry died in Dec 1920 aged 52 per CWGC ex Royal Engineers, buried Bridlington Cemetery. He was the 36 year old in 1901 (36 yo in 1901 would have been 55 years old, but Wife and Address match).

So if the other Luke Lowry is a different man he must be the 23 year old in 1901 who was boarding in Manchester.

Hope this makes sense to all,

Steve.

[harneyn]

All makes sense! Do think the dates: death of Luke I - and ? of Luke II are they same.

I think all was over but the waiting after August in the Suvla area. Why would one enter the arena in September?

Curiouser and curiouser!

Ann

[Stebie9173]

Right, I'm hooked. I'm off to Kew on the 30th. This is gonna be high on my "Once I've finished with my own stuff" list! If I get time I'll check medal rolls and service records.

Steve.

[harneyn]

Good man...

We cannot discount human error here - when the cards were done I mean.

Strangely, I think, there were seven Lowry's listed in the West Yorkshire Regiment - just the one LukeI listed in the medal cards - the two I have came in the same document.

Three were officers, and four privates - all privates on the same catalogue reference WO 372/12.

Big thanks for all your input!

Ann