Identifying regiment/unit - Same soldier or different?

[EmmaS]

Good afternoon, I'm trying to identify the soldier/s in the attached photographs.  I had originally thought that the soldier in the solo photo and the soldier marked x in the group photo were the same person as look vaguely similar but I think that's probably not the case as uniforms/cap badges different? Are the soldiers in the group photo Lancashire Fusiliers? Not sure about the solo photo.  On the back of the group photo, it states the soldier marked x is Pte J A Cropper.

Also, in the solo photo, there looks to be a picture of a family member embedded within it.  Was this something that was commonly done? I'm intrigued as to how they achieved this.

Many thanks for your help
Emma

Edited 6 June , 2023 by EmmaS

[Michelle Young]

The group photo shows men badged to the Lancashire Fusiliers. The soldier in the top photo could be 10th London but the badge is quite indistinct. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Michelle Young said:

The group photo shows men badged to the Lancashire Fusiliers. The soldier in the top photo could be 10th London but the badge is quite indistinct. 

Spot on Michelle and unusual that in the group photograph of Lancashire Fusiliers every single man is wearing the simplified emergency jacket with plain patch breast pockets issued early in the war.

The soldier on his own is dressed in the Prisoner of War uniform issued in the German camps.  Notice the inset contrasting cloth on his left arm to mark him out as a POW.  I think that his cap badge is a special one made up in the camps for men who’d lost their insignia (captured wearing steel helmets) and not a regimental badge. I’m not sure how many variants of these there were.

Edited 6 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[mancpal]

They appear to be MP’s judging by their cuff armlet.

It may be the angle of the photo but I wonder if the sergeant seated left belongs to the Kings Liverpool Regt. He wears a ribbon on the wrong breast so could the image have been reversed? Could his ribbon be an MM?

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, mancpal said:

They appear to be MP’s judging by their cuff armlet.

It may be the angle of the photo but I wonder if the sergeant seated left belongs to the Kings Liverpool Regt. He wears a ribbon on the wrong breast so could the image have been reversed? Could his ribbon be an MM?

He’s a Lancashire Fusilier as they all are, he’s just curved his badge to conform with his cap.

The buttons all fasten correctly so the image isn’t reversed.  A medal ribbon worn on the opposite side is usually for saving a life, or prewar for abstinence from alcohol.

I think you’re absolutely right that they are all Regimental Police from an LF battalion.  The Provost Sergeant and all his staff.

Edited 6 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[EmmaS]

19 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Spot on Michelle and unusual that in the group photograph of Lancashire Fusiliers every single man is wearing the simplified emergency jacket with plain patch breast pockets issued early in the war.

The soldier on his own is dressed in the Prisoner of War uniform issued in the German camps.  Notice the inset contrasting cloth on his left arm to mark him out as a POW.  I think that his cap badge is a special one made up in the camps for men who’d lost their insignia (captured wearing steel helmets) and not a regimental badge.

I belivev the soldier marked X in the group photo is:

Name:	James Arthur Cropper
Gender:	Male
Death Date:	2 Dec 1917
Rank:	Private
Regiment:	15 Lanc Fus
Regimental Number:	201126

[CorporalPunishment]

Top photo appears to be Border Regiment.       Pete.

[EmmaS]

22 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Spot on Michelle and unusual that in the group photograph of Lancashire Fusiliers every single man is wearing the simplified emergency jacket with plain patch breast pockets issued early in the war.

The soldier on his own is dressed in the Prisoner of War uniform issued in the German camps.  Notice the inset contrasting cloth on his left arm to mark him out as a POW.  I think that his cap badge is a special one made up in the camps for men who’d lost their insignia (captured wearing steel helmets) and not a regimental badge.

In the solo one, does 'N 14' within the photo have any significance? I believe he would most likely have served in a regiment from the North.

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Top photo appears to be Border Regiment.       Pete.

The shape looks right I agree Pete, although the crown seems odd and abnormally large. 

Edited 6 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[EmmaS]

Just now, EmmaS said:

In the solo one, does 'N 14' within the photo have any significance? I believe he would most likely have served in a regiment from the North.

Thanks @CorporalPunishment that makes sense.

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, EmmaS said:

In the solo one, does 'N 14' within the photo have any significance? I believe he would most likely have served in a regiment from the North.

Assuming it’s a mark on the photo Emma I think it’s just a reference number of the print for the photographer.  They were local civilians from outside the camp and permitted to make money from the prisoners who wanted to send photos home to family to demonstrate that they were well.

[CorporalPunishment]

1 hour ago, EmmaS said:

Good afternoon, I'm trying to identify the soldier/s in the attached photographs.  I had originally thought that the soldier in the solo photo and the soldier marked x in the group photo were the same person as look vaguely similar but I think that's probably not the case as uniforms/cap badges different? Are the soldiers in the group photo Lancashire Fusiliers? Not sure about the solo photo.  On the back of the group photo, it states the soldier marked x is Pte J A Cropper.

Also, in the solo photo, there looks to be a picture of a family member embedded within it.  Was this something that was commonly done? I'm intrigued as to how they achieved this.

Many thanks for your help
Emma

The medal ribbon worn on the right breast by the sergeant is a puzzler. The only ribbons authorised for wear on the right of the uniform, by order of Queen Victoria herself, are those of the life saving medals awarded by the RNLI, the Royal Humane Society and the Order of Saint John of Jerusalem. The sergeant's medal ribbon bears no resemblance to any of those.      Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

The medal ribbon worn on the right breast by the sergeant is a puzzler. The only ribbons authorised for wear on the right of the uniform, by order of Queen Victoria herself, are those of the life saving medals awarded by the RNLI, the Royal Humane Society and the Order of Saint John of Jerusalem. The sergeant's medal ribbon bears no resemblance to any of those.      Pete.

It does seem very odd.  I’ve seen Army Temperance medals worn on that side, but it was around the time of the 2nd Boer War, and Temperance seemed to disappear after 1914.  Certainly I never saw any more of their medals after that date.

Edited 6 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Michelle Young]

The sign on the door in the group photo says Bureau, which suggests taken in France? 

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

The sign on the door in the group photo says Bureau, which suggests taken in France? 

Yes I wondered if they might be using it as a temporary ‘guardroom’, as that place is where the Provost Sergeant and his staff of Regimental Policemen, as seen in the photo, were usually based.

Edited 6 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[EmmaS]

Thank you all for your help.  I'm confident now that the soldier marked with a cross in the group photo is Pte J A Cropper.  Harriett Smith was definitely his mother.  Would it show in his records someone if he was a MP?

Source: Fold3 / Ancestry.

Full Name

CROPPER, JAMES ARTHUR

Date of Birth

1887

Age

30

Birth Place

BURY, LANCASHIRE

Nationality

British

Resided Place

ROCHDALE, LANCASHIRE

Date of Death

2 Dec 1917

Fate

Killed in Action

Information

Parent: Mrs. Harriet Smith, of 45, Brookshaw Close, Walmersley, Bury, Lancs.

Rank Name

Private

Service Number

201126

Duty Location

France And Flanders

Died in Active Service

Yes

Service

British Army

Regiment

Lancashire Fusiliers

Battalion

15th Battalion

Conflict Period

World War I

Served for

United Kingdom

Edited 7 June , 2023 by EmmaS

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, EmmaS said:

Thank you all for your help.  I'm confident now that the soldier marked with a cross in the group photo is Pte J A Cropper.  Harriett Smith was definitely his mother.  Would it show in his records someone if he was a MP?

Source: Fold3 / Ancestry.

Full Name

CROPPER, JAMES ARTHUR

Date of Birth

1887

Age

30

Birth Place

BURY, LANCASHIRE

Nationality

British

Resided Place

ROCHDALE, LANCASHIRE

Date of Death

2 Dec 1917

Fate

Killed in Action

Information

Parent: Mrs. Harriet Smith, of 45, Brookshaw Close, Walmersley, Bury, Lancs.

Rank Name

Private

Service Number

201126

Duty Location

France And Flanders

Died in Active Service

Yes

Service

British Army

Regiment

Lancashire Fusiliers

Battalion

15th Battalion

Conflict Period

World War I

Served for

United Kingdom

He wasn’t a MP but a RP Emma, a temporary regimental appointment and so no, it’s unlikely to be recorded for that reason.  MPs functioned at formation level policing Army Divisions, etc and were a separate body of men.

NB.  It’s entirely understandable that you were perhaps confused by the MP armlets on their wrists that do indeed have MP.  There were a variety of armlets depending on whether they were issued from the army supply chain, or made up locally within the unit.  Common variations were RP, RMP, and MP, and the ‘Provost Sergeant’ (the man usually in charge) would sometimes even have PS.  The quick way to identify the MPs who operated as a separate and discrete body at the higher level, is that they had their own special cap badge, rather than a regimental one, and commonly wore a red cap cover.

Edited 7 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[EmmaS]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

He wasn’t a MP but a RP Emma, a temporary regimental appointment and so no it’s unlikely to be recorded for that reason.

Ah! Thank you :-)

[EmmaS]

This one is proving to be a bit more of a mystery. So to summarise from above:

- he is dressed in the Prisoner of War uniform issued in the German camps.  
- his cap badge could be a special one made up in the camps for men who’d lost their insignia but could be Border Regiment

I had an inkling that he could be John Lord, born in the Rochdale area, baptised in Healey. His wife, Mary (nee Dearden) died in 1907 and he had two surviving children at the time of WW1 The oldest Thomas was serving in the war, the youngest Alice living with grandparents.  The photo of the young girl behind the soldier in the photo looks very much like John's daughter Alice around that time.  Unfortunately the name John Lord is very common in the area and I have not been able to track down military records to confirm if it is him or not.

Have tried researching the address sent to - 1911 and 1921 censuses - bit no obvious link at the moment.  

[Tawhiri]

The only soldier named Lord and serving with the Border Regiment on the Red Cross' Prisoners of the First World War site is a Cecil Lord, who died in captivity on 27 May 1918 at the age of 22. The CWGC records his parents as John Thomas and Mary Ann Lord, of Spen End Farm, Roughlee Booth, Burnley.

It would be a bit of an effort, but you could trawl through all the cards of soldiers with the surname Lord to see if you can find a match if you are sure the man in your photo is John Lord. There is a John Lord, service number 201171, who was serving with the 2/7th Battalion of the Lancashire Fusiliers at the time of his capture in March 1918. Looking at the information on the individual cards associated with this individual his date of birth appears to be 26 June 1877, born in Bury, and next of kin is an Edith Lord Haywood according to the first card. The second card gives his next of kin as Edith Lord, with an address of 57 Middleton Road, Heywood.

[EmmaS]

John's parents were Thomas Lord & Martha Greenhalgh. He was baptised on 3rd Jan 1869 so likely born late 1868. 

In 1911 he was living, as a widower, with his mother who had remarried and now called Martha Bamford, a brother, sister and his son at 164 Ramsden Rd, Wardle, Rochdale, Lancs. His daughter Alice Lord was living with his late wife's mother - Ann Buckley (formerly Dearden) - her husband Samuel Buckley and aunt Martha Ann Dearden at 9 Wardle Fold, Wardle, Rochdale.

I haven't been able to locate John on the 1921 census yet. His daughter Alice was still living with Ann Buckley (now a widow) and Martha Ann Dearden at 9 Wardle Fold, Wardle.  His son Thomas Lord had married in Qtr 2 1918 and was living at 1 Lincoln Street, Rochdale with his wife Frances Alice (nee Gladman) and young son Norman. I'm trying to track down Thomas's marriage record online to see what his father's profession was given as and whether he was alive at that time.  If no luck, I'll order the certificate.

Edited 7 June , 2023 by EmmaS

[EmmaS]

On 07/06/2023 at 10:43, EmmaS said:

This one is proving to be a bit more of a mystery. So to summarise from above:

- he is dressed in the Prisoner of War uniform issued in the German camps.  
- his cap badge could be a special one made up in the camps for men who’d lost their insignia but could be Border Regiment

I had an inkling that he could be John Lord, born in the Rochdale area, baptised in Healey. His wife, Mary (nee Dearden) died in 1907 and he had two surviving children at the time of WW1 The oldest Thomas was serving in the war, the youngest Alice living with grandparents.  The photo of the young girl behind the soldier in the photo looks very much like John's daughter Alice around that time.  Unfortunately the name John Lord is very common in the area and I have not been able to track down military records to confirm if it is him or not.

Have tried researching the address sent to - 1911 and 1921 censuses - bit no obvious link at the moment.  

Good afternoon,

Just wanted to post an update on this one.  I have finally managed to track down who the soldier in this photo is.  His name is Fred Waring. Born 23 Sep 1880.  Served with the 5th Border Regiment (Reg no 242287). Captured on 21 Mar 1918 at Templeux, St Quentin. A POW at Cassel until Jan 1919. 

He lived with his widowed mother Elizabeth and siblings ar 109 Ramsden Road, Wardle. In 1933 he married Martha A Dearden, who sadly died the following year.  Martha had lived with her mother Ann Buckley and her niece Alice Lord.  Alice Lord was my husband's grandmother and her mother had died when she was 4. This photo had been handed down with her photographs and the little girl in the picture appears to be her.  I can only presume that Fred and Martha had known each other for many years but waitied until their widowed mothers had both passed away before marrying.  They may have met through working at the local mill.  

Best wishes
Emma

Edited 27 July , 2023 by EmmaS

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, EmmaS said:

Good afternoon,

Just wanted to post an update on this one.  I have finally managed to track down who the soldier in this photo is.  His name is Fred Waring. Born 23 Sep 1880.  Served with the 5th Border Regiment (Reg no 242287). Captured on 21 Mar 1918 at Templeux, St Quentin. A POW at Cassel until Jan 1919. 

He lived with his widowed mother Elizabeth and siblings ar 109 Ramsden Road, Wardle. In 1933 he married Martha A Dearden, who sadly died the following year.  Martha had lived with her mother Ann Buckley and her niece Alice Lord.  Alice Lord was my husband's grandmother and her mother had died when she was 4. This photo had been handed down with her photographs and the little girl in the picture appears to be her.  I can only presume that Fre and Martha had known each other for many years but waitied until their widowed mothers had both passed away before marrying.  

Best wishes
Emma

I’m glad you have been able to find a potential solution Emma, it certainly sounds logical.  Thank you for taking the trouble to update the forum, many don’t and it does make a big difference.

[WordlessSong]

That is very interesting, this man will have served and been captured with my Great Great Uncle Pte Alfred Ward (241822) who was wounded and taken prisoner on the same day. I wonder do you know what company Fred Waring was in? POW records (the earliest of which is June 1918 at Quedlinburg) for my uncle indicate he was in A company of the  5th Borders who, according to the war diaries, were stationed in the Templeux-le-Guerard quarries when they were overrun on 21/03/18.