Grave Density Maps

[Cavalryman24]

Hi All,  I have seen the discussion on the "Grave Density Maps" and I have my own query.  Does anyone know if these maps cover the Melville area, if so does anyone have a copy,  if not do the  CWGC hold information on where locations of bodies are known, and have not been recovered and why not.  Hope that makes sense.

Steve

[Michelle Young]

Is there a specific casualty you are looking for? I’m not familiar with Melville, what sector is it in? The WFA used to sell CDs with the density maps included , but I imagine it’s all been incorporated into TrenchMapper now. @WhiteStarLineand @Howardare the ones to ask.

[Cavalryman24]

Thanks for the reply Michelle, I know the location of a particular burial but as far as I can see his body was never recovered, as he is only recorded on a memorial.  So I am trying to confirm if any attempt was made to recover the body which failed.  The body was buried at "Halt Corner"

Edited 6 June , 2023 by Cavalryman24

[Michelle Young]

Have you looked to see if any men from the regiment and same day have known burials? Looking at the location, near Merville, I’m guessing April 1918? 

[WhiteStarLine]

11 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

I’m not familiar with Melville

Thanks to Michelle for clarifying the location is not actually Melville.  The good news is that all these maps are available free of charge on TrenchMapper.  Post war there were expected to be 3 bodies in the vicinity of Halt Corner and 33 a little south.  CWCG holds information on field exhumations but not on unrecovered burials.

To see this map open TrenchMapper, hover over a map and select Map Id Jump.  Paste in m_5_000763 and locate Merville.

[jay dubaya]

If we had some details we could have a look at the concentrations from this area. It may be that he is now buried as an unknown.

[Cavalryman24]

Hi All, thanks for the replies my mistake a typo and should have read Merville.  The man in question is a 9th Lancer 1956 Pte Rupert Oliver Sarbach who  was killed in action on 11th October 1914.  I know from regimental records he was buried at Halt Corner however there is no evidence his body was recovered as he is remembered on the Ploegsteert Memorial.  Obviously if the area was subject to repeated shelling then it is understandable. If he is possibly still in situ then I will report all my evidence to CWGC for their attention alternatively if he is in an unknown grave then it may be possible for the marker to be amended.

PS the image I used of  the trench map is dated 1918 as I could not find any predated 1917

Steve.

[Michelle Young]

There’s only one other 9 Lancers on that date, and he is commemorated on a special memorial at Merville cemetery 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/540155/tom-redhouse/#&gid=2&pid=1

 The area was fought over in 1918, so it could be that the grave was destroyed then. I’m not sure what you mean about if the grave is still in existence you will report it to the CWGC? They don’t exhume bodies. The only reburials are remains that are found during building/ road widening/ canal construction. 

[jay dubaya]

Where is the document that records the original grave location? Have you checked the concentration reports for Merville CCE?

 

[Cavalryman24]

1 hour ago, jay dubaya said:

Where is the document that records the original grave location? Have you checked the concentration reports for Merville CCE?

 

The record is in the 9th/12th Lancer museum and no I have not checked the concentration records as I do not know how to find them

2 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

There’s only one other 9 Lancers on that date, and he is commemorated on a special memorial at Merville cemetery 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/540155/tom-redhouse/#&gid=2&pid=1

 The area was fought over in 1918, so it could be that the grave was destroyed then. I’m not sure what you mean about if the grave is still in existence you will report it to the CWGC? They don’t exhume bodies. The only reburials are remains that are found during building/ road widening/ canal construction. 

I was not aware that the CWGC does not involve its self in exhumations.

 

[jay dubaya]

I have the concentration reports for the cemetery and will happily have a trawl through them later. If you have a copy of the document relating to the grave location would you be happy to post it here? This will enable a better detailed search and any cemeteries that received concentrations from this area. Do you know who buried him?

As it stands the CWGC would not accept a case such as this, they do not actively search for or exhume remains unless they are brought to light as Michelle mentions

[Cavalryman24]

1 hour ago, jay dubaya said:

I have the concentration reports for the cemetery and will happily have a trawl through them later. If you have a copy of the document relating to the grave location would you be happy to post it here? This will enable a better detailed search and any cemeteries that received concentrations from this area. Do you know who buried him?

As it stands the CWGC would not accept a case such as this, they do not actively search for or exhume remains unless they are brought to light as Michelle mentions

Many thanks for the offer and for improving my knowledge.  This is a direct copy of the information: 

squadron : C [B]
mobilised in August 1914, killed in action 11.10.1914, buried at crossroads near ROUSSEL FARM north of MERVILLE

[AOK4]

I would say that there is a big chance that the grave was concentrated to a larger cemetery in the area in 1915-18, Merville Communal (and Extension) come to mind.

Jan

[WhiteStarLine]

On 06/06/2023 at 19:08, Cavalryman24 said:

The body was buried at "Halt Corner"

 

31 minutes ago, Cavalryman24 said:

killed in action 11.10.1914, buried at crossroads near ROUSSEL FARM north of MERVILLE

I'm sorry, but this last extract should have been in your very first post.  You knew all of this, but posted 'Melville' and 'Halt Corner' yet the authoritative source doesn't even mention 'Halt Corner'.  The 1915 map shows a crossroad north of the farm, a kind of T-junction south of the farm and Halt Corner to the west.  I agree Halt Corner is the most obvious place but now we are speculating on the phrase "crossroads near ROUSSEL FARM".

For future threads, please include all the information you know in the first post.  Good luck.

[jay dubaya]

I note that Redhouse has a Special Memorial at Merville CCE as he is believed to be buried here. A Memorial Cross bearing his particulars was recovered from L.21.b although this has been questioned later as K.21.b.

I don’t suppose you copied Redhouse’s details from the regimental records?

I think I have located the 3 graves that are recorded on the Burial Location Map in 8.c(I find the term Body Density Map a little crass) which were indeed concentrated to Merville CCE during 1919.

[Michelle Young]

Redhouses’ documents say memorial cross without remains. Strange. 

[Cavalryman24]

1 hour ago, jay dubaya said:

I note that Redhouse has a Special Memorial at Merville CCE as he is believed to be buried here. A Memorial Cross bearing his particulars was recovered from L.21.b although this has been questioned later as K.21.b.

I don’t suppose you copied Redhouse’s details from the regimental records?

I think I have located the 3 graves that are recorded on the Burial Location Map in 8.c(I find the term Body Density Map a little crass) which were indeed concentrated to Merville CCE during 1919.

Redhouse 9th Lancer records show the following; 

squadron : C mobilised in August 1914, killed in action 11.10.1914, buried at VIERHEUCK North of MERVILLE
Alias

Edited 7 June , 2023 by Cavalryman24

[Michelle Young]

I think that should read Vierhoek. 

[jay dubaya]

18 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Redhouses’ documents say memorial cross without remains. Strange. 

Thanks Michelle, I should have added that. There certainly something odd regarding a number of concentrations in this cemetery.

 

18 minutes ago, Cavalryman24 said:

Redhouse 9th Lancer records show the following; 

squadron : C mobilised in August 1914, killed in action 11.10.1914, buried at VIERHEUCK North of MERVILLE
Alias

Thanks for that Steve, I’ll see if anything can be found in the concentration reports.

Edited 7 June , 2023 by jay dubaya

[Howard]

On 05/06/2023 at 17:04, Cavalryman24 said:

Hi All,  I have seen the discussion on the "Grave Density Maps" and I have my own query.  Does anyone know if these maps cover the Melville area, if so does anyone have a copy,  if not do the  CWGC hold information on where locations of bodies are known, and have not been recovered and why not.  Hope that makes sense.

Steve

The term used was Body Density Maps but that is informal. There is a whole page on that in TrenchMapper's Help-> Knowledge Centre under Body Density.

Howard

[KGB]

Looking for C Coy, 2nd Battalion Royal Irish Regt, 24 May 1915, near Ypres. 

[jay dubaya]

3 minutes ago, KGB said:

Looking for C Coy, 2nd Battalion Royal Irish Regt, 24 May 1915, near Ypres. 

Is this relevant to this discussion in any way?

[KGB]

23 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

Is this relevant to this discussion in any way?

Looking for the graves. 

[Michelle Young]

@KGB I suggest that you start a new thread about this. Piggybacking onto a thread about Cavalry graves near Nieppe forest isn’t really relevant. 

[jay dubaya]

The blue penciled numbers annotated on the Body Density maps have been discussed previously and an interpretation has been formed as to their meaning, but, for want of a better word in cases such as this they are fairly useless. Having checked several squares against Concentration of Graves & Burial Reports (CoG-BR) for two cemeteries in the area I can say that little comparison can be made between the two. In several instances the numbers from the CoG-BR heavily outweigh those blue numbers of registered graves and sometimes they may be spot on.

At dusk on 11th October 1914 the 9th Lancers were within ¼ mile from Merville having arrived via St. Venant to the west. Here they manned the line between Caudescure and Vierhouck where fighting took place throughout the night and into the following day.

There appears to be 2 dead from this action, both killed in action. Regimental records note their burial locations –

Pte 1956 Rupert Oliver Sarbach (Ploegsteert Memorial) – buried crossroads near Roussel Farm north of Merville

Pte 107 Tom Redhouse (Special Memorial, Merville CCE) – buried at Vierhouck north of Merville

 

I would agree that the burial location for Sarbach ‘crossroads near Rousel Farm’ is very likely to be the already identified location in the vicinity of Halt Corner - 36a.K.8.c.

There is some confusion regarding the recovery location of the Memorial Cross for Redhouse. The CoG-BR for Merville CCE records the location this was recovered from as (36a) L.21.b.4.6 although no body was recovered. Redhouse doesn’t have a marked grave here but a Special Memorial ‘Believed to be buried here’. The map reference was questioned by the IWGC on 18th March 1937 annotating the reference as K? (21.b.4.6). Neither of these map references are near Vierhouck. L.21. being around 2.5 miles south-east and K.21 being around 2 miles south west of Vierhouck, in my opinion ‘buried at Vierhouck’ would suggest K.11 or K.12. However, I think it can be agreed that the location of the Memorial Cross was probably recovered from K and not L. Whilst there are several registered and unregistered graves concentrated and reburied as UBS from these locations, there is nothing to suggest any of these or other UBS concentrated to Merville CCE was a Cavalryman, the CoG-BR are very scant regarding ‘effects’ detail.

The CoG-BRs appear to have further anomalies with this error of K and L. The original war time graves in the communal cemetery were adjusted (on paper?) during the post Armistice concentration, here too the cemetery is noted on 2 CoG-BRs as having been in L and not K. These errors may suggest an over-zealous typist as some have been overtyped, sadly this has rendered any searches with the CoG-BRs for this cemetery very difficult.

I find no graves were concentrated from K.8 into this cemetery, but 3 named graves were recovered from L.8.c. I also noted that all squares around K.8. appeared in the CoG-BR, the registered graves marked in blue pencil must be somewhere…

Extending the search reveals 14 sets of remains were recovered from K.8 and were concentrated to Aval Wood MC around a mile north of Caudescure - in this instance there are 3 registered graves recorded for K.8.c (note the Body Density map) 2 UBS and 1 named. Again, the K and L error has crept into the CoG-BR here – the 2 typed letters over-stamp each other making it very difficult to decipher which may be correct. Several of the recoveries were named and were casualties of 1918. It has been possible using relevant war diaries to strongly suggest these soldiers became casualties in K and not L.

Sadly it now gets muddier… 36a.K.8.c.4.0 appears on the south side of the crossroads near Halt Corner. A cross and body was recovered from this location on 28th August 1919 – 5122 Pte JD Smith 9/QR Lancs – no effects nor other ID is noted. I can find no soldier with these details, the number may belong to Pte 5122 Joseph William Soper, 9th Lancers – KiA 1st November 1914 (although some documents say 31st October) and buried in trenches at Messines, he is now remembered at the Menin Gate. The nearest name match I can find is Pte 21 Harry Oswald Smith, 9th Lancers – died on or about 29th/30th October 1914 and now remembered at La Touret Memorial. On 29th the regiment moved back to Vielle Chapelle and billets at Neuve Eglise after being in action at Neuve Chapelle the previous day, on 30th the regiment took over trenches in front of Messines. I cannot see why either of these 2 soldiers would have a cross near Roussel Farm some 2 miles north west of Merville – Messines is around 15 miles north east and Neuve Chappele around 10 miles south west from this location.

I suspect that since the IWGC could find no matching details for those recorded on the CoG-BR this soldier is now buried as an UBS at Aval Wood MC. Potentially this may be the final resting place of Robert Oliver Sarbach but proving this may now be impossible. There is also a probability that Redhouse may too be buried here.

Doc 1967813 needs to show that the map reference is indeed the K that I speculate.

If so, the location of K.8.c.4.0 fits with Sarbach 'buried crossroads near Roussel Farm'. 

But, the name and number don't match anyone, not to mention the 9th (Queen's Royal) Lancs. 

Personally I don't think this will ruffle too many papers, there's not much merit around the name and number of the casualty, there's no effects to identify an individual nor regiment - although I do think there's merit in slips of regimental titles and over zealous typists.

Was the correction of the map reference for Redhouse signed off by an old comrade in the know and now working for the IWGC? - I can't make out the flowery signature.

Over to you...

 

 

(doc 2027325 - image courtesy of CWGC)

 

(doc 1967813 - image courtesy of CWGC)