Would someone lie about being younger to join the navy? c1906

[Higginsthepheasant]

Hey! Maybe this is obvious to somebody with greater knowledge on the navy than I. I have found navy service records for who I think is my great-great grandfather Arthur. He matches the details in almost every way – birth date, birthplace, physical description, reason for discharge, occupation, etc except for birth year. My Arthur was born in 1883 but these records say the person was born in 1887.

Maybe this is a near identical relative (I’ve bumped into this before) or maybe this is my Arthur and this was a mistake or a lie. I’ve heard of men lying about being older than they were to be eligible to join in WW1 and WW2 but not of someone pretending to be younger.

The records say he served from 1906 on various ships as a stoker until 1917, when he was discharged due to poor vision and paid war gratuity.

If anyone can give me some insight into this period in the navy and the recruitment process I would be so grateful!

[KizmeRD]

As you say, its unusual to push forward a DoB, as normally the goal was to pretend to be older.

Did he have any younger brothers (I’ve known of identities being swapped in order to join up)?

Or had he (long shot) perhaps been a few years in Borstel (and this was something that he was seeking to cover up)?

MB

 

 

[KizmeRD]

Thinking about this a little more, if he joined-up pre-war, I believe that there was an upper age limit of 25 for Stoker recruitment (and this might explain the discrepancy).

MB

Edited 5 June , 2023 by KizmeRD

[RNCVR]

I have had several medals in my collection to RN ratings (of all branches) that falsified their ages upon joining up.  I am certain they each had their own reasons for doing that.  Its usually to "up" their age - ie: from 15 to say 17 or 18.

[horatio2]

The age limits for a Special Service (SS) Stoker were 18-25 [KR & AI 1913   -  https://sites.rootsweb.com/~pbtyc/KR&AI_1913_Vol_II/Special_Service.html ]

Was he enlisted as SS? However, a man born in 1883 would have been only 23 in 1906 so why claim to be younger for fraudulent enlistment purposes?

I can find in KR & AI no upper age lint for CS stokers, only a minimum age of 18 for Stoker 2nd Class   -      https://sites.rootsweb.com/~pbtyc/KR&AI_1913_Vol_II/Stoker.html

May we know his name and number, please?

 

Edit   -  see also   -   https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1910/jul/14/stokers-royal-navy-age-limit

Edited 5 June , 2023 by horatio2

[Higginsthepheasant]

5 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

As you say, its unusual to push forward a DoB, as normally the goal was to pretend to be older.

Did he have any younger brothers (I’ve known of identities being swapped in order to join up)?

Or had he (long shot) perhaps been a few years in Borstel (and this was something that he was seeking to cover up)?

MB

 

 

He did have younger brothers but none were born in 1887. I hadn't considered a stint in Borstal, I will have to do some digging into that. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

5 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

Thinking about this a little more, if he joined-up pre-war, I believe that there was an upper age limit of 25 for Stoker recruitment (and this might explain the discrepancy).

MB

Interesting. If he was born in 1883 he still would have been under 25 in 1906, though my initial assumption was he might have been turned away for being on the older side.

[Higginsthepheasant]

4 hours ago, RNCVR said:

I have had several medals in my collection to RN ratings (of all branches) that falsified their ages upon joining up.  I am certain they each had their own reasons for doing that.  Its usually to "up" their age - ie: from 15 to say 17 or 18.

Yes, my grandfather aged himself up to join the Navy in WW2.

4 hours ago, horatio2 said:

The age limits for a Special Service (SS) Stoker were 18-25 [KR & AI 1913   -  https://sites.rootsweb.com/~pbtyc/KR&AI_1913_Vol_II/Special_Service.html ]

Was he enlisted as SS? However, a man born in 1883 would have been only 23 in 1906 so why claim to be younger for fraudulent enlistment purposes?

I can find in KR & AI no upper age lint for CS stokers, only a minimum age of 18 for Stoker 2nd Class   -      https://sites.rootsweb.com/~pbtyc/KR&AI_1913_Vol_II/Stoker.html

May we know his name and number, please?

 

Edit   -  see also   -   https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1910/jul/14/stokers-royal-navy-age-limit

Yes he was described as SS. His name was Arthur Daniel Cole, his service number was SS103342 in 1906 and in the 1917 record he had the number k5665 (this record also mentions the previous service number as well) .

[horatio2]

Of the sixty men who enlisted SS around the same time as Stoker COLE, four were born in 1882 or 1883, so his 1883 d.o.b. was no obstacle.

Should you wish to see his signed engagement papers ( = attestation), you can apply to the archive of the Fleeet Air Arm Museum (National Museum of the Royal Navy). I  believe they can now provide digital copies (charges apply).

Is is worth noting that a man was not usually required to provide a birth certificate or proof of d.o.b. on signing his engagement.

[Higginsthepheasant]

21 hours ago, horatio2 said:

Should you wish to see his signed engagement papers ( = attestation), you can apply to the archive of the Fleeet Air Arm Museum (National Museum of the Royal Navy).

I didn't realise that, I will look into it. Thank you!