KENDO Posted 29 May , 2023 Share Posted 29 May , 2023 Hi all, Does anyone please know the history or symbology of the 31 Division's first divisional sign which was used from July 1916 to July 1917? The triangle could be a pyramid as the division served in Egypt??? Thank you. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 29 May , 2023 Admin Share Posted 29 May , 2023 This informative site does not give any clues as to its origin/meaning .... Army, Corps and Divisional Signs 1914-1918 – The British & Commonwealth Military Insignia Database (britishbadgeforum.com) But perhaps you could submit an enquiry on their Forum - if someone there knows and you find out, please let us know. Regards Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KENDO Posted 29 May , 2023 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2023 Hi Russ, Thank you for your reply. I will post my query on that site and report back if any new info comes to light. Best regards, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 30 May , 2023 Share Posted 30 May , 2023 I'm sure I read somewhere that this insignia appeared on transport during it's use... Only just noticed this, rotated anti clockwise we have what may appear to be 31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KENDO Posted 30 May , 2023 Author Share Posted 30 May , 2023 Hi Jay, Yes, that really does look like 31. Thank you for pointing that out. Best regards, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 May , 2023 Share Posted 31 May , 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, jay dubaya said: I'm sure I read somewhere that this insignia appeared on transport during it's use... Only just noticed this, rotated anti clockwise we have what may appear to be 31 Yes that was indeed the transport sign painted onto vehicles, whereas on uniforms the red and white rose was used. There were two versions of the latter, red stalk crossing over white worn by Lancashire units and the reverse, white over red by the Yorkshire units. I’ve seen the above information in several sources, but most recently in publications by Westlake and Bilton. I’ve not yet found any explanation of the origin of the transport sign. Edited 31 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KENDO Posted 31 May , 2023 Author Share Posted 31 May , 2023 Hi Frogsmile, Thank you for that information. Thinking about it, the red and white colours could represent Lancashire and Yorkshire (the colour of the roses) and the number 31 only becomes visible when you turn.the badge on its side as pointed out by jay dubaya. I personally think the triangle could represent a pyramid from the division's time in Egypt. Best regards, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 May , 2023 Share Posted 31 May , 2023 Just now, KENDO said: Hi Frogsmile, Thank you for that information. Thinking about it, the red and white colours could represent Lancashire and Yorkshire (the colour of the roses) and the number 31 only becomes visible when you turn.the badge on its side as pointed out by jay dubaya. I personally think the triangle could represent a pyramid from the division's time in Egypt. Best regards, Ken I suppose it depends upon when exactly the sign was adopted Ken. The Division existed before going to Egypt. It’s certainly a theory that might carry weight if the sign wasn’t used until the formation arrived overseas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KENDO Posted 31 May , 2023 Author Share Posted 31 May , 2023 Hi Frogsmile, According to the Players Army Corps and Divisional Signs cigarette cards, the sign was in use between July 1916 to July 1917. Best regards, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 31 May , 2023 Share Posted 31 May , 2023 5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: There were two versions of the latter, red stalk crossing over white worn by Lancashire units and the reverse, white over red by the Yorkshire units. I believe it was the white rose overlapping the red and vice versa not the stems as surely that would be hard to distinguish and one rose would always be in front of t’other. just pulled out my copy of ‘Divisional & other signs’ by Capt V Wheeler-Holohan (12th Bn London Rgt - published in 1920) sadly he doesn’t even mention the above 31st sign. I’m also reminded that the 66th (East Lancashire) Division also used a triangle as their sign albeit divided in three horizontally (pale blue/pale yellow/pale blue) as such maybe the triangle is symbolic to the county, especially since it appears in red on the 31s sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 May , 2023 Share Posted 31 May , 2023 (edited) 59 minutes ago, KENDO said: Hi Frogsmile, According to the Players Army Corps and Divisional Signs cigarette cards, the sign was in use between July 1916 to July 1917. Best regards, Ken Well that certainly adds credence to your suggestion Ken given that the division was sent to Egypt in December 1915 before moving to France in March 1916, but why add pyramids after leaving the wider Levant and arriving in Europe. Edited 31 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 May , 2023 Share Posted 31 May , 2023 (edited) 49 minutes ago, jay dubaya said: I believe it was the white rose overlapping the red and vice versa not the stems as surely that would be hard to distinguish and one rose would always be in front of t’other. just pulled out my copy of ‘Divisional & other signs’ by Capt V Wheeler-Holohan (12th Bn London Rgt - published in 1920) sadly he doesn’t even mention the above 31st sign. I’m also reminded that the 66th (East Lancashire) Division also used a triangle as their sign albeit divided in three horizontally (pale blue/pale yellow/pale blue) as such maybe the triangle is symbolic to the county, especially since it appears in red on the 31s sign. The entire emblem was red or white on the painted sign including the stem and it was the stem that did the actual crossing over and that was my reference. On the metal badge also used the stem was rendered in green and so only the rose heads were different. Afternote: I’ve misinterpreted that from a black and white image in Westlake’s publication Jay and you are correct. My apologies. Edited 31 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 31 May , 2023 Share Posted 31 May , 2023 4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: The entire emblem was red or white including the stem and it was the stem that did the actual crossing over. Wheeler-Holohan would dispute this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 May , 2023 Share Posted 31 May , 2023 2 minutes ago, jay dubaya said: Wheeler-Holohan would dispute this. Yes I’ve just corrected my post, unfortunately I was looking at a black and white image Jay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 31 May , 2023 Share Posted 31 May , 2023 10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Yes I’ve just corrected my post, unfortunately I was looking at a black and white image Jay. As a Yorkshireman living in exile I’m reminded of a lad from my college days in Sheffield who proudly displayed his new rose tattoo… ‘lovely art work’ I said ‘but why is it red?’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 May , 2023 Share Posted 31 May , 2023 22 minutes ago, jay dubaya said: As a Yorkshireman living in exile I’m reminded of a lad from my college days in Sheffield who proudly displayed his new rose tattoo… ‘lovely art work’ I said ‘but why is it red?’ A very apposite analogy 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KENDO Posted 31 May , 2023 Author Share Posted 31 May , 2023 Hi Frogsmile, According to the Players Army Corps and Divisional Signs cigarette cards, the sign was in use between July 1916 to July 1917. Best regards, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KENDO Posted 31 May , 2023 Author Share Posted 31 May , 2023 Hi Frogsmile, Maybe stretching it a bit but I just thought Egypt - pyramids - triangle. Best regards, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 May , 2023 Share Posted 31 May , 2023 (edited) 15 minutes ago, KENDO said: Hi Frogsmile, According to the Players Army Corps and Divisional Signs cigarette cards, the sign was in use between July 1916 to July 1917. Best regards, Ken Yes I responded to this post above Ken. 11 minutes ago, KENDO said: Hi Frogsmile, Maybe stretching it a bit but I just thought Egypt - pyramids - triangle. Best regards, Ken It’s certainly a possibility, but I’d have expected it to be adopted in Egypt, not after they arrive in France a year later. Edited 31 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KENDO Posted 1 June , 2023 Author Share Posted 1 June , 2023 Hi Frogsmile, Thank you for that information. Thinking about it, the red and white colours could represent Lancashire and Yorkshire (the colour of the roses) and the number 31 only becomes visible when you turn.the badge on its side as pointed out by jay dubaya. I personally think the triangle could represent a pyramid from the division's time in Egypt. Best regards, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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